Mrs. Dudgeon:
... [inaudible 00:00:07] they had a laundry and everything over there.
Conklin:
This is a tape we're making with the ... now, what's your names?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Dudgeon.
Conklin:
Dudgeon, Mr. and Mrs. Dudgeon, who were on Alcatraz from 19-
Mr. Dudgeon:
'29 to 1934.
Conklin:
Which is the military prison time-
[00:00:30]
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Mm- mm (negative), military disciplinary barracks.
Conklin:
Military disciplinary barracks-
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yeah, it wasn't prison.
Conklin:
... the western. What's your first name?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Arthur.
Conklin:
Arthur, what was your job?
Mr. Dudgeon:
It was at the hospital.
Conklin:
A doctor?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No, no. Medical department.
Conklin:
Where on the island was the hospital located?
Mr. Dudgeon:
On the top floor of the jail.
Conklin:
Where was the jail?
[00:01:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
On top of the rock.
Conklin:
Okay, [crosstalk 00:01:02] the fourth building, the Citadel Building contained the hospital. Which way did it face?
Mr. Dudgeon:
It faced the back of the jail. It faced San Francisco. The hospital was on the top floor in the back, whether you call that north or east.
Conklin:
Yeah, I don't know.
[00:01:30]
Mrs. Dudgeon:
The hospital itself didn't face toward the [inaudible 00:01:32].
Conklin:
It was the rear portion of the building, the front being where the lighthouse was.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yes.
Conklin:
Okay, so then the hospital was the top rear.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Top rear.
Conklin:
Did the people that were in the disciplinary barracks, were they allowed to walk around the island freely?
Mr. Dudgeon:
You mean the prisoners? No.
Conklin:
The prisoners.
Mr. Dudgeon:
No, only the trustees.
[00:02:00]
Conklin:
About how many trustees were there in relation to the inmate population?
Mr. Dudgeon:
I think about an eighth.
Conklin:
An eighth of them were trustees. How many prisoners? What was the head count on the average when you were there?
Mr. Dudgeon:
About 300.
Conklin:
The cell blocks were A, B or ... Were there three cell blocks in the main building?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[inaudible 00:00:02:29].
[00:02:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
I forgot. I believe there was only two. Maybe there was three.
Conklin:
They had the flat iron bars?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yes.
Conklin:
The building ... because my understanding was that they knocked down Fort Alcatraz and the Citadel and replaced it with that big concrete building that's there now, that you don't like.
[00:03:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Well, that building's been there since [inaudible 00:03:03]. I think that's when-
Mrs. Dudgeon:
No, the one I didn't like were some of the buildings that were there.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Some of the old quarters.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Not the prison itself, but the other buildings-
Conklin:
In the front of the island, those new apartments?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
... on the San Francisco side and on the Angel Island side, and down on the docks. There was a little cottage right close to the dock that we lived in for a while. I understand it's gone. You could look right across to Berkeley campus.
[00:03:30]
Conklin:
I've seen that. I've seen pictures of that house. That was a nice house.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Right in there, right up close against the Post Exchange.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
The bowling alley was in that building.
Mr. Dudgeon:
The bowling alley was in the Post Exchange.
Conklin:
On a typical day on Alcatraz, in your capacity, what was your job? What would you do, say, in the morning in the prison hospital?
[00:04:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
[crosstalk 00:03:55] Mostly I would hold sick call. The sick call for the guard company. One of the sick call for the drug company. Prisoners and things [inaudible 00:04:02] sick call.
Conklin:
Were there people in beds in the hospital, or were they transferred to San Francisco?
Mr. Dudgeon:
A few of the enlisted men. Not prisoners. Yes. Which [inaudible 00:04:22] San Francisco, Letterman John.
Conklin:
Letterman, then was the big transfer place. I think that was still true during other prison on the island.
[00:04:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Was it federal?
Conklin:
Yeah. Letterman seems to... I can remember people mentioning Letterman a lot, probably because it's a military.
Let's see. I guess what we really would like to know are your general feelings about the island. Were you very fond of the place? What were some of your favorite memories from being on the island and the people that you live there with, and the whole thing?
[00:05:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
We had quite a few people that we liked very much.
Speaker:
Was the idea of it being a prison imposing all the time?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No, it didn't bother us at all. It didn't bother us at all.
Conklin:
Did it see much like a prison, or were the people just there and you were taking care of them? And was there a lot of hostility? Were there a lot of fights?
[00:05:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
No. Quite a few fights, yes.
Conklin:
Anyone hurt?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Between the prisoners.
Mr. Dudgeon:
No hostility. Maybe guards and the prisoners that is necessary.
Conklin:
What was the average length of stay in terms of the prisoners on the Island? Can you think of an average amount of years that people seem to spend there?
Mr. Dudgeon:
[inaudible 00:05:56] was in there all the way from six months to life. The average sentence, I would say... A bunch of us were there while I was there. It was around 20 years.
[00:06:00]
Conklin:
20 years was an average people-
Mr. Dudgeon:
That is the population while I was there.
Conklin:
Had 20 years to spend?
Mr. Dudgeon:
On average. I'm just taking it all together.
[00:06:30]
Conklin:
Okay. What would be an average age, or is there an average age?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
All ages.
Conklin:
All ages. Racial composition? What was the racial composition?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Black and white.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Everything, really.
Conklin:
Really? No bulk of any certain age or race.
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Okay. Any in terms of the crimes people were there for, were you in tuned at all with that?
[00:07:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
The colored that were there while I was there were all from the riots in Houston.
Conklin:
It was a large riot in Houston. Was it a military riot.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Conklin:
And most of the people were black?
Mr. Dudgeon:
A bunch of colored troops, mutiny.
Conklin:
From what year would this have been? The mutiny in Houston was about what year?
[00:07:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
I think it was around the early part of the century. I believe it was in 19 [inaudible 00:07:39] .
Conklin:
So, that's why they were sentenced.
Mr. Dudgeon:
They was still, I think it was about 15 of them, that was transferred to [inaudible 00:07:51] when we flowed the prison out.
Conklin:
[00:08:00]
I hate to jump around, but I remember you saying that you helped close the military barracks, and saw the coming of the next prison. Would you just tell me about those days? Little interesting stories about the transfer? Were you upset by it? Did you want to stay there?
Mr. Dudgeon:
[00:08:30]
I knew it was going to close, but I left. I left six months before that. We got on CC duty. When I was out there, I worked the hospital. Stayed in the hospital six months, and when I got out of the hospital, I was transferred to a new station from Alcatraz.
Conklin:
But it closed while you were gone.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[crosstalk 00:08:41] I was still living there.
Conklin:
Okay. Now I'd like to hear from you about what it was like when the change was coming. Just tell me some about it.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:09:00]
First off, it was a wonderful place to live, as far as families were concerned because there was tennis courts and bowling alley in the clubs. And they had the entertainment come over from San Francisco, and they entertain both the prisoners and the people who lived there.
Conklin:
Together in one room?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:09:30]
[00:10:00]
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Then, they had the gardens over on Angel Island, and the prisoners worked in the gardens and they had all sorts of fresh vegetables, and they'd bring them over. And the families good, for a certain sum a month, we could get all the fresh vegetables in and squabs dressed, ready for the oven, and a fresh bouquet once a week, the flowers that they brought over. When we had a dance or a club meeting, or some event for the people who lived there, both civilians and military, because there were lighthouse and the people who ran the utilities, the prisoners, some of them could play and they would play for cigarettes.
We didn't pay them, but we gave them a cigarette to play for us. They had civilians running the lighthouse, power plant, the laundry, had our own laundry. And there were-
Mr. Dudgeon:
Modeled industries.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:10:30]
Yeah, model industries. And we had a lot of trees and flowers. Of course, [inaudible 00:10:26] had been taken over, but the Island was pretty then, because it was covered with this rock plant. Nice plant. And there were a lot of trees.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Very few trees.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Huh?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Very few trees.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
They were small ones, but there were a lot of them. Not very big ones.
Conklin:
Yeah.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
And then the quarters, they had the houses at the end of the Island was the parade ground and the tennis courts were there. And they had houses for families of military who were living there and also, the lighthouse.
Conklin:
How big was your house, and how much was your rent and what year was that?
[00:11:00]
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:11:30]
Well, let's see, I don't know rent. We just had the house. If we didn't have a house that gave us a quarters allowance someplace else. But you took whatever it was. We had the big house on top of the hill, which was a two story house and it was a two bedroom. And then, we were down in the little cottage. First, we were in the little cottage. And then we went to the top of the hill. Then we came back to the cottage because a man with more seniority and higher rank came in and he preferred to be up there, and we liked the cottage. It was fine. We would have took the cottage. And it was a two bedroom, but it was small.
Conklin:
Okay. But you don't remember the rent, or you didn't pay rent?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
No. You don't pay rent.
Conklin:
It was rent free?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Mr. Dudgeon:
You're allowed so much for quarters.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
If you didn't have a house on the base, on the post, then they allowed you so many dollars a month to find your own apartment.
Conklin:
Off the Island?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Conklin:
I see.
Mr. Dudgeon:
We just lost that, and then we moved on the island.
[00:12:00]
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Then there was a big barracks, a building built over the dock. And that was an apartment. So, my sister who was going to college the time, came to live with us. And she married an army man. And they had an apartment over in one of those apartments.
Conklin:
That building, they called it in the prison base Building 64. And that's still there.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
I don't remember.
Conklin:
It's still there.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:12:30]
And I remember my little nephew, he used to watch for the boat to come back when I came home from work. He watched the seagulls around the launch. The first word he ever said, was not daddy or mother. It was bird. Watching the birds.
[00:13:00]
Angel Island was occupied, then. It was a fort, Fort McDowell. They had a movie house over there, and when they had movies or a basketball game, they'd bring everybody on the Island. And if you want, they'll tell you that there was so and so going on and you could go down and get the launching free. Free transportation over, and see free the picture or the game free. And if you were going to be late coming home the city, let the watch master know, and he'd meet you at the dock over Fort Mason. First, there were regular boats that ran at regular times, but we'd leave our cars over there at Fort Mason. And then they would pick us up.
Speaker:
[00:13:30]
You mentioned quite a few things. There is a bowling alley, you could go to the island for the movies. What else?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Well, there were the tennis courts, and...
Speaker:
On Alcatraz?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yes, on the parade grounds. And there was a club room that they call it. There was a place where they had a woman's club and an officers, and the other clubs that they, the military had car parties. And we had a few dances. So, they had different kinds of just regular social club meetings.
[00:14:00]
Speaker:
Was that where the entertainment was?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:14:30]
No, entertainment was up in the main prison. It was a big home where they had a mean band every once in a while, or part of an opera company, or part of a stage play or, a musical orchestra over. We had something at least once a month as I remember. At least once a month and sometimes oftener, cause I remember we had a real nice entertainment at least once a month. And we got to see some of the things that you would pay quite considerably to go to see in San Francisco, then we'd drive over there under recreation for the troops on business.
Conklin:
Did you feel free to have your friends come visit you on the island? Was that a very easy thing?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Oh, yes. Oh, yeah.
Conklin:
What was the procedure? Did they require a pass?
[00:15:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
If you couldn't meet him at the boat to bring them over, you had to get a pass and send it over so that they could bring them with them.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
If you couldn't meet them. But if you were going to meet them at the boat, they didn't need a pass.
Conklin:
And how long could they stay? As long as they pleased? Could they stay a month?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:15:30]
Oh, any time. We had my brother and sister in law and the two children there, living with us for about six weeks. It was decent. And another thing was nice, because the children, while there were a few trucks going up and down the hill, carrying things, the children had to run the place and they used to watch out for them. I remember my little nephew decided to come down to our house down the Hill. And some of the prisoners driving the trucks saw him running down the middle of the road. And his mother didn't know he could walk that far yet.
Conklin:
They took him home?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
They took care of the children, the prisoners.
Conklin:
Was there sort of a family feeling on the island with the prisoners and you?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Those that were out and doing things. Yes, I think so.
[00:16:00]
Conklin:
Did you feel afraid of them? Were you scared at all?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Oh, no. I never had the least bit of a fear or uneasiness night or day, or anytime.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Really not as much as you have out here.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Not as much as you have out the streets most of the time now.
Conklin:
I even got that feeling from people when it was a maximum security prison. I've heard a lot of stories about that. It was a very tight family island. That was a very pleasant place to live.
[00:16:30]
Mrs. Dudgeon:
There were only a few that were maximum security when you were there, weren't there? Just maybe half a dozen or something of that sort? I know there weren't very many, and some of there, the only thing is they had to sleep there and eat there and eat their meals up there. But otherwise, they were practically like anybody else, coming and going.
Conklin:
Just regular people doing their time.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:17:00]
And they did the jobs in various industries, and they worked over in the farm every morning, and went over in season and worked on the farm, vegetable, and flower gardens over on Angel Island and back again. Just like you can go to work and back.
Conklin:
So, the majority of the prisoners done were out and about doing things. A few of them would be locked up in the main prison because of security reasons and punishment.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Really, we had no maximum.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Weren't there two of them in there that were not military when you live there?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
[00:17:30]
Mrs. Dudgeon:
No, they weren't even there then. And when they closed it, of course, Red wasn't there. He had been on CC duty. He'd contracted pneumonia, and he was over at Letterman Hospital.
Conklin:
You were there alone?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:18:00]
Yes. I was working in San Francisco, and I went back and forth, and I stayed in the house. Of course, getting things packed up, my sister and brother in laws were there. And then when they left and closed it up, both my sister and I felt sad to leave it because it had been a very happy place to live, and very pleasant place. The men used to go fishing. We could catch striped bass right off of the dock, or on the rocks.
Conklin:
I caught stripers last year. It's neat.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Conklin:
Big ones.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Mr. Dudgeon:
How many were you allowed to catch?
Conklin:
No one knew I was doing it. So I got about two or three, but I wasn't having much luck. It was fun.
Mr. Dudgeon:
We had no limit.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
No limit for us, no.
Conklin:
Oh, I bet you didn't have a limit out there.
[00:18:30]
Mrs. Dudgeon:
They used to scalp them and everything, pickle them. Then, some of the officers and some of the men used to go down Monterey fishing. And the launch master was quite a fisherman. He knew how to salt down fish and smoke them and that sort of thing. Go to Monterey and get mackerel, and come back. We had all of the bass there. This might be interesting to some of the younger people. I think the first time anyone was successful in swimming from Alcatraz to the mainland was done by the daughter of one of the-
Conklin:
The warden?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
No.
[00:19:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Quarter master.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Quarter master Simon's daughter. And she practiced quite a while, and her brother was in the Navy. And he watched and check the tides for her and all that sort of thing. And they watched him check the tides, and the weather and everything. And they had a boat just in case she got in trouble, but she made it. That was the first one that ever made it all the way across.
Speaker:
That was when you were there?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yes.
[00:19:30]
We knew her. She was one of the teenagers.
Conklin:
Do you remember what year that was, possibly?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
That was probably in '33, wasn't it? '33, or maybe it was in '34.
Mr. Dudgeon:
'34, while I was in the hospital.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
That's right. Just before they closed down, because she was afraid she wasn't going to get a chance to do it before her father was transferred out.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Since then, there's been a lot of them swimming.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
They may [inaudible 00:19:52] the chance, but sometimes they'd call for, help and they get them. Sometimes the body would be washed up someplace. Sometimes you would never see them because of the current [crosstalk 00:20:04].
[00:20:00]
Conklin:
How many escape attempts do you remember for the time you were there?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
I only remember two, but they didn't get that far either.
Conklin:
Do you remember their names?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
No. I didn't know the prisoners.
Speaker:
What was the model industry program you mentioned?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Furniture making, clothing repair.
Speaker:
I see.
Conklin:
Why did they use the term model? I don't understand that.
Mr. Dudgeon:
I don't either. I don't either.
Conklin:
It was just called model industries?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Called model industries, that's all.
Conklin:
Were the men paid for their work?
[00:20:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
They received a small pay.
Speaker:
Were the furniture [inaudible 00:20:34] just people who lived on the Island, or did they have an outlet?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Repairing furniture. They've made some new furniture.
Conklin:
And shift it off the Island or sold it to people on the island?
Mr. Dudgeon:
They let them sell it to individuals if they wanted to.
Conklin:
On the island?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Conklin:
Okay. What was the food like in the prison?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Very good.
[00:21:00]
Conklin:
And everybody ate the same food? You ate the same thing as a prisoner would eat, then?
Mr. Dudgeon:
I ate in the regular mass, yes.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Most of the people-
Mr. Dudgeon:
Most of the time I ate at home.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Most all of the people who were stationed there, except the guard company who weren't married. They had their mess, but all the married men ate at home because it was just as far as from here to the corner.
Conklin:
[00:21:30]
Yeah. One of the biggest things we thought we knew about the time, it's hard to know what we really know. I get a picture that they just brought barges full of top soil over. And it was the prisoner's job on Alcatraz to bring the soil off the barge onto the Island and do some of the basic plannings. In the thirties, were they still doing that?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Wasn't too much of it.
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
No.
Conklin:
The soil transfer stopped?
Mr. Dudgeon:
They never did bring any soil while I was there.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
No, not over there. But that's how it was, because they started growing things.
[00:22:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
There was little [inaudible 00:22:02] left out on the rocks.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
The rock plants, you know?
Conklin:
Yeah.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
That just covered it. It as beautiful.
Conklin:
Ivy.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Not ivy, it's a little succulent, and has a very pretty-
Conklin:
It's called bisem branthem, I think.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
One of them, they used to call prison carpet. The small...
Conklin:
Purple?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Very small. Yeah.
Conklin:
Oh, they still have that.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
It was very tiny.
Conklin:
Yes. And it's so beautiful. It's in the front of the island. [crosstalk 00:22:25] Just cascades down the side.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
It was over all the rocks, all over the sides.
[00:22:30]
Conklin:
Was the whole front of the Island covered with century plants when you were there? Huge, very prickly-
Mr. Dudgeon:
From the lighthouse over to that side.
Conklin:
Solid century plants. Oh, they're huge now.
Mr. Dudgeon:
But they took out some of them when they put that big building up there on the edge of the parade ground. That was put up by the federal [inaudible 00:22:50].
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:23:00]
Federal put all that barbed wire around. When it came to federal government, they put all that barbed wire around, and they put up some big torch lights and some others buildings. And it just sort of spoiled some of the things.
Conklin:
So, when you were there, there wasn't a security fence around the perimeter of the Island.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Oh, no, no. You could go right down to fish right down on the rocks.
Mr. Dudgeon:
You could walk right down to the water's edge.
Conklin:
Then the prisoners free access right down to the shore.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Oh, yes. Those that were free.
Conklin:
If they were not being watched and were out.
Mr. Dudgeon:
If they were not under guard.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
If they were not under guard or restricted, for some reason or another. Misbehavior or something.
Conklin:
They could just walk and have free roam of the island.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Oh, yes.
[00:23:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Of course, they didn't have much free time.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
They were busy.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Even though they were not under guard, they'd have to go back and forth from one job to the other.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
They had certain jobs they had to do.
Speaker:
What all would they be doing besides working on Angel Island at the furniture shop?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Did they work in the laundry?
Mr. Dudgeon:
The laundry. Quartermaster laundry.
[00:24:00]
Speaker:
For other bases?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Speaker:
They'd bring it in?
Mr. Dudgeon:
They did all the quartermaster laundry. At that time, they were doing most of the laundry for Letterman, too.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
So, they did the laundry for them, and people who lived there could send their laundry also.
Conklin:
And they had to bring all the water in by barge?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
The water came over by barge morning. Every morning, the water boat came over.
Mr. Dudgeon:
I rode the water boat quite a bit.
Speaker:
Where'd they come from?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Fort Mason.
[00:24:30]
Mrs. Dudgeon:
We lived in the apartment over in the Marina for a while. And in order to get over to the hospital on time for sick call, he would leave and ride the water barge over because the water boat went over, what was it? Five o'clock in the morning.
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Six o'clock, something like that.
Mr. Dudgeon:
It pulled out Seven o'clock sharp.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:25:00]
Very early, anyway, before the launch or the regular boat went across. And it would get him over in time. And if you're waiting for the regular boat or the launch, he wouldn't. And so he rode the water boat a lot. Actually, the boat is a sightseeing boat around the bay now. It takes sightseeing, what's the name of it?
Conklin:
Harper Tourist?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
A tourist.
Conklin:
One of the small ones?
Mr. Dudgeon:
General Frank M. Cox.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
It was the boat that ran to Alcatraz and Angel Ireland on a regular schedule then. And then there was a Q-9, which it was a quartermaster master, like a small launch.
[00:25:30]
How big was it the Q-9?
Mr. Dudgeon:
32 feet.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
And it was for just in between. And this went back and forth to Alcatraz. Or if it took a group over to Angel Island from Alcatraz for a game or some sort of recreation, or that sort of thing. Picnics.
Conklin:
So it ran on the schedule then?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yes.
Conklin:
But if the boat man was understanding, in case you had-
Mrs. Dudgeon:
The launch master, yeah.
Conklin:
In case you had a friend who was a little bit later, if you needed a ride somewhere?
[00:26:00]
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Well, if the people who lived there were going to be on the mainland for dinner, or they were going to the theater or anything, they leave word with them when they were going to be back at Fort Mason to come home. And the last boat left at 11:00 or 12:00?
Mr. Dudgeon:
12:00.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
12:00. And if you're going to be later than 12:00, and you told the launch master when you'd be back, and the small launch would come and get you.
Conklin:
Oh, how nice.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:26:30]
So that you didn't get stranded. So, you wouldn't have to leave. If you're going to the opera, for instance, you couldn't get back down by 12:00. Parl your car, and go-
Mr. Dudgeon:
The big boat would make a round trip from 11:00 to 12:00. It would go from Fort Mason to Fort McDowell, and back to Fort Mason. Stops at Alcatraz while going to For McDowell, and stop at Alcatraz coming back. Took an hour, round-trip.
Conklin:
Was it early in your married life that you lived there, or had you been married for a while before you were transferred?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
No. Rather early.
[00:27:00]
Conklin:
Was it a romantic place to be?
Mr. Dudgeon:
I don't know.
Conklin:
Oh, come on.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:27:30]
If you look back to 1930s, nothing was very romantic, then. CCC camps, the depression, and everybody took a cut in pay. Actually, they didn't let army personnel reenlist in the lower grades because they were cutting down because of the expenses. That threw them out, and no work.
Conklin:
So, actually getting those sprayed vegetables from Angel Island was a big help, I bet.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
It was a dollar a month.
Mr. Dudgeon:
No, no.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yes, it was.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Vegetables were one cent a toss.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yeah. Well, a toss is about a dollar a month from what we got. Vegetables plus the squab and the flowers for free.
Mr. Dudgeon:
The squab was too dense.
[00:28:00]
Mrs. Dudgeon:
This was another thing. We didn't lock the door. And they'd bring the squab, already dressed, and the prisoner would bring it back, and they'd bring it in and put it in the refrigerator. They'd leave the flowers inside in water for you. I mean, there was no question of anybody. Nobody ever missed anything. You didn't lock the doors, and they just brought things and left them.
Conklin:
And they kind of watched your children, too.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yes. They don't let them do things they shouldn't, or hurt themselves. It was a wonderful place for youngsters.
[00:28:30]
Speaker:
Could they have things in their cells? Was there-
Mrs. Dudgeon:
I don't know anything about the inside. He was inside, and I was only in the recreation hall.
Mr. Dudgeon:
The only thing they could have was, some of them had a book or two. But no radio. Nothing like that.
Speaker:
They didn't want you to know what was going on in the outside world?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, no. They'd let them have [crosstalk 00:28:56].
Mrs. Dudgeon:
They had a library.
[00:29:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
In the main jail building, over the front, the officers in front. It was all officers [inaudible 00:29:09] how big the place was. Upstairs was all one big room up over the officers. That was where the library and the meeting hall was for the program, and picture shows and stuff like that.
[00:29:30]
Conklin:
I think they still retain those uses during the next prison.
Mr. Dudgeon:
They did.
Conklin:
I think that's where the movie hall was too. And the church. They had that in the same building.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
[00:30:00]
I think the only thing only place in the actual prison building I was in, was the recreational and the infirmary hospital. I was up in the pharmacy. And then the... What was the room you call it where you had this sick call and first aid treatment?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Sick call room.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
I guess, sick call room. But those are the only two places I was ever in the prison.
Conklin:
Was it a pretty security-minded place? I mean, you just did not go into the prison or did you not go because you never wanted to go?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
I think people did go, but I just never-
Conklin:
You never thought to do it?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
No, because I was working over in San Francisco.
Mr. Dudgeon:
But you had to go at a certain time. You couldn't go just [crosstalk 00:30:28].
Mrs. Dudgeon:
You couldn't go just any time.
Conklin:
You just couldn't walk through the prison?
[00:30:30]
Mrs. Dudgeon:
No, no.
Conklin:
As a woman, you'd have to...
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Or a man. Nobody could, except people who had business there. But a lot of people came over and visited the prison, but I just never bothered.
Conklin:
When prisoners had visitors, could they sit in the same room with the visitors? And could they receive gifts and packages from home?
[00:31:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
They received packages and gifts from home, yes. But for visitors, very, very, very seldom.
Speaker:
Did they have a glass wall between them?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
Speaker:
Or could they embrace, or shake hands?
Mr. Dudgeon:
They could, yes.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Just like in a regular room.
Conklin:
In the same room?
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Sitting room.
Mr. Dudgeon:
The few that did have visitors, they took them up the... I don't know what they called that room up there.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Well, it was actually like a living room, or a sitting room or something of that sort.
Conklin:
Just a visiting room.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Yes, a visitor's room.
Mr. Dudgeon:
That was the recreation, or that was what we called a recreation room.
[00:31:30]
Speaker:
Did they not have too many visitors because nobody came, or was it hard to clear a visitor?
Mr. Dudgeon:
The army didn't believe in that.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
They didn't encourage it.
Speaker:
Do you feel you saw different line of ailments at the hospital there than you would at other hospitals, or just general, everyday colds?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No, everyday occurrences.
Speaker:
Yeah. There wasn't anything special about working at that hospital in terms of ailments?
[00:32:00]
Conklin:
People didn't get more colds?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No, no. In fact, the sick call was lower there than it would have been at Fort McDowell when I was stationed there.
Conklin:
So, you were at McDowell, too then?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yes.
Conklin:
In the same capacity?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yes.
Mrs. Dudgeon:
Except when you were mess sergeant.
[00:32:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
I was mess sergeant at McDowell, too.
Conklin:
The man of all trades.
What were the differences between Angel and Alcatraz, in terms of the feelings? Must have been markedly different because there was no prison.
Mr. Dudgeon:
If you were on duty at Fort McDowell, then Alcatraz was one of those places you didn't want to go into.
Conklin:
I see. Why don't we stop, and you can have your dinner.
[00:33:00]
[00:33:30]
[00:34:00]
As luck would have it, he started talking to me upstairs and we didn't get this part recorded, but he brought up the Dungeons. And I had him describe the Dungeons. And he said they were down below the level of the prison. The entrance was the entrance next to A block. They were seven cells that were hollowed out just from the solid rock. They were like little rooms with the rocks surrounding them, and a regular cell door on the front. He said that somehow, there was a passageway that came out right near the industrial buildings. And I think that passageway still exists. Or I know now where the other side of the door is. And he said that the army didn't use them much, and that there was another place that, he wasn't clear about this; there was another place where you could walk out through this passageway. And if you walked up through it during high tide, you'd get your feet wet, but I couldn't make much sense of it.
Conklin:
I don't know when it starts. Let me see.
Okay. Upstairs, just a little bit ago, you were describing for me the dungeon portion of the island. Can you do that again? Because there's a lot of crazy stories going around about the dungeons. So, just tell me what you know of them.
[00:00:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
What I saw.
Conklin:
And what was that?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Six different cells. About 10' square, shoot out of the solid rock.
Conklin:
Down underneath?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Underneath the building itself.
Conklin:
Okay. Did you say they had cell front doors on the front of them?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Conklin:
Okay. And they opened individually with keys?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yes.
[00:01:00]
Conklin:
Were they full, or were they hardly ever used, or what?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Not used by the Army.
Conklin:
But they were there from the old fort days?
Mr. Dudgeon:
The old Spanish fort.
Conklin:
They were Spanish dungeon cells?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yes.
Conklin:
I see.
Speaker:
Those, you entered from the main cell block up top?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yeah.
Speaker:
Not by the solid door?
Mr. Dudgeon:
That was the only you could get in, go down through the floor, to the basement of the jail. And then, just keep on going down.
[00:01:30]
You could also go clear out over to the edge of the water, down through the tunnels.
Conklin:
There was a tunnel leading from the old dungeon area, down to the water line?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Down to the water line.
Speaker:
You could stand up and walk out the whole way?
Mr. Dudgeon:
It used to be.
Speaker:
Is it a brick line, or just cut of the rock?
Mr. Dudgeon:
[00:02:00]
No, dug out of the rock. But there's gates put in below the dungeons, that is, the Army put one in, put a door in. Just like over the front of the cells, where the isolation rooms.
Speaker:
Where did that tunnel come out at?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Right underneath the Model Industries building.
Speaker:
Which would be, what, towards Sausalito, say? Or, around Angel Island?
Mr. Dudgeon:
On the Sausalito corner, towards Belvedere.
Speaker:
Was there a landing out there when you got there?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, no.
Speaker:
Just drop off?
[00:02:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
It was right on the edge of the water. You walked right out into water.
Speaker:
Oh.
Mr. Dudgeon:
And at high tide, the opening was completely closed. And low tide, you could get your feet wet walking out.
Speaker:
But they didn't use the downstairs at all for anything while you were there?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, no. No. That was all locked up. Wasn't even used for storage of any kind.
Conklin:
Were there any rats on the island in the basement?
Mr. Dudgeon:
There was a few. There was a few down there in the dungeon.
[00:03:00]
Conklin:
Let's see ... There's a chance the Park is going to be acquiring Angel Island, and I really don't think we know anything about Angel Island. Can you tell me what you remember about it from the early days, what it was like, what it did, did you like it over there?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, the place was nice service. Easy.
Speaker:
Where was that guard your wife was talking about?
[00:03:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
When you go to the front of the ... You go up to go to the island, from Fort Mason, you look right up past the left-hand side of the island, over there on the side of Angel Island, about midway between the water and the top of the island.
[00:04:00]
There's an old building over there, about 60' long, and three stories, setting out on the side of the hill by itself. That is, it used to be. I don't think there's anything more of the building there. And that was the pigeon loft. Two upper stories was the pigeon loft. And they used the bottom floor for sorting the vegetables out, the radishes and ...
Conklin:
And the garden was right near there, then?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yes.
Speaker:
And only the prisoners worked on that garden?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Only the prisoners.
[00:04:30]
Conklin:
Did it supply the vegetables for Angel Island also, for the military base there? Camp McDowell?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Well, not the casuals, no. But from the residents, yes.
Conklin:
What's a "casual?" That's low-grade personnel? Or, low-salaried people?
Mr. Dudgeon:
People going from one station to another, go there for shipment.
Conklin:
Oh, just a waiting time?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Just waiting.
[00:05:00]
Speaker:
Any average on ... A few days, or a couple weeks? Could they stay there a few months?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Maybe one day, maybe two or three months.
Conklin:
Transit. It's like transit there, then?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yes. Overseas Replacement Depot, was what it was, ORD.
Conklin:
And what year ... This would be the '30s, then?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah. Late '20s, early '30s. Now, the ORD is over at Alameda. And for a while, it was up in Stoneman.
[00:05:30]
Conklin:
Where is Camp Stoneman?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Pittsburg. It's up the river.
Conklin:
Okay. Clothing, and showers. For the prisoners, how often would they be showered?
Mr. Dudgeon:
They showered every day.
[00:06:00]
Conklin:
Every day. What did the clothing look like for the prisoners during the work day, and was it any different than the weekends?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
Conklin:
Always the same uniform?
Mr. Dudgeon:
They had a dress uniform.
Conklin:
And what did that look like?
Mr. Dudgeon:
That was dark. I think it was dyed serge.
Conklin:
Just plain pants and top, with a shirt and a coat? Or, just a shirt top?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Dark shirt.
Conklin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
[00:06:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Plus, they had to have the "DB" on the back, or on the leg of their trousers.
Conklin:
DV? What's that?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Discipline Barracks.
Conklin:
Oh, DB. I see.
Mr. Dudgeon:
That was usually on the leg.
Conklin:
On the outside of the right leg?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Speaker:
Both legs?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Not necessarily. And their number was across the back.
Conklin:
Across the back. Did they ever wear stripes?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
Conklin:
Always what color, for regular wear?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Blue denim.
[00:07:00]
Conklin:
Blue denim. And the correctional officers or the guards, what kind of clothes did they wear?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Army uniform.
Conklin:
Okay.
Speaker:
What was the dress uniform for the ... The prisoners had two sets of clothing?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah. They had the work clothing, the blue denim, and then, what they called dress, or Sunday uniform, was dark.
Speaker:
Oh. Was that a wool, or was that a cotton?
Mr. Dudgeon:
I believe it was wool. ORD material was dyed black.
[00:07:30]
Speaker:
I see. And that had the numbers and the "DBs" as well?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah. Each individual man had a different number. All of them had the "DB."
Conklin:
Okay. In terms of church services, was there a communal thing Sunday, and everybody, families and prisoners went alike? Or, did they have separate services?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Very seldom, any families went up to the church services.
Conklin:
They could have, if they wanted to?
Mr. Dudgeon:
I think so.
Conklin:
But they didn't.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Most of them went to San Francisco.
[00:08:00]
Conklin:
Were any babies born on the island while you were there? Tell me, tell me.
Mr. Dudgeon:
I don't think there was.
Conklin:
You're just laughing over there, what? Go on. Come sit down and tell me.
Mr. Dudgeon:
All of them were taken over to deliver over at Letterman.
Conklin:
Were there any close calls?
Mr. Dudgeon:
One.
[00:08:30]
Conklin:
One close call, huh? That's what you're laughing about? Tell me. That'd be a nice story to share with people.
Mr. Dudgeon:
It happened from Fort Mason to Letterman.
Conklin:
It was on the boat?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No, no. In an ambulance.
Conklin:
Oh.
Mr. Dudgeon:
They got them off the boat.
Conklin:
Oh, I see. That could have been real exciting, huh?
Conklin:
[00:09:00]
Well, my little niece was almost in the ambulance. Doctor [Brothers 00:08:54] called the boat, and my sister said she had plenty of time, and Doctor Brothers said, "No, she didn't," and he called the ambulance to be down at the dock, and they didn't get her call routed, and she almost had her in the ambulance [inaudible 00:09:13] to Letterman, and just ran off with the stretcher, and rolled the stretcher right into the living room, hose and all.
Conklin:
That's great.
Conklin:
I thought they said one was delivered on the launch before we went there.
[00:09:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah, while I was there.
Conklin:
Yeah. Let's see.
Conklin:
But they went to Letterman for things of that sort.
Conklin:
Did women seem to have big families when they were there? What was the average number of kids per family?
Conklin:
Like most families everywhere, it wasn't any different than any other [crosstalk 00:09:51].
Conklin:
Is that five or six, or is that two?
Conklin:
I think the biggest family there was five, wasn't it?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Thorntons was the largest family.
Conklin:
There was five.
[00:10:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah. Most of them had one or two.
Conklin:
And there were three ... The Scotts were three, the two girls and the boy that went to the Navy.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Well, there was four Scotts, but only two of them-
Conklin:
But only three of them were there at the time. One was away.
And then, there was two next to us ... No, three. The two girls, and Twiggy, that came along, after the girls were in high school.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, that's right. I was thinking there was only two girls in that family. There was three.
[00:10:30]
Conklin:
Yeah. But I don't think there was any ... Yeah, there was one family, just had one. But there was one, two ... The biggest one, there was only one that had as many as five.
Conklin:
How many families lived on the island at one time, would you say? Could you just estimate the number? Like, 50, or 20?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Well, let's see ...
[00:11:00]
Conklin:
You have to count the upper and lower, and [crosstalk 00:11:09]
Mr. Dudgeon:
20 would be more like it.
Conklin:
25, I would guess.
Mr. Dudgeon:
I think between 20 and 30. Two of them are civilian.
Conklin:
How was the communication between you and the family that ran the power house, and the people in the lighthouse? Where they at all considered different because they were civilians? Or, everyone was one big group?
Conklin:
We knew them just as well as we did the [crosstalk 00:11:28].
Mr. Dudgeon:
Another family, as far as we ...
[00:11:30]
Conklin:
How did you handle the mail? Was there a Postmaster in residence at the island? Because I know in the later prison, they had a woman who ran the Post Office.
Conklin:
As I recall, it wasn't the regular Postmaster. They brought the mail over, and it went to the guard company, where Johnny worked. But we got our mail right there, on the island.
Mr. Dudgeon:
We didn't have a Postmaster on the island.
[00:12:00]
Conklin:
We didn't have a Postmaster, it came over and went up there at the administrative office.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah, it went to [crosstalk 00:12:03].
Conklin:
It was delivered.
Conklin:
Did you have a store on the island, a small bread and milk store?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
Conklin:
You all had to shop at the city? Was that cumbersome at all, moving all your bags of groceries to the boat, and then, off the boat, on to the ... Would you go with friends, or would you go alone, shopping?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Huh?
Conklin:
[00:12:30]
Did the women just go shopping together, like three or four of you go grocery shopping? Or, it was mostly, you waited till your husband got home?
Conklin:
A lot of things we could order, and have come over on the boat.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Have it delivered down to the dock.
Conklin:
And just pick it up at the dock.
Conklin:
For an extra charge?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No. No. No charge.
Conklin:
The store would deliver to the boat?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yes.
Conklin:
[00:13:00]
The service messes shopped over in the city for their provisions. I was trying to think. Some of them went over on Angel Island, the commissary over there.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah. But most of them went to the commissary in the presidio. In the Letterman area.
Conklin:
But most of the officers used the commissary in the presidio, or, if you didn't go to the commissary, things you get in the other stores, in the markets. But most of the shopping they did in the commissary, because then, they would take it down, put it on the boat. You didn't have to worry about it, from the commissary. It's just like delivery from a store. And there's no charge.
Mr. Dudgeon:
We did have a post exchange there on the island.
[00:13:30]
Conklin:
Do you remember where that was located?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Sure.
Conklin:
Where?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Right next door. It was a little hut that we had.
Conklin:
Next to the hut on the dock?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No. The dock, then up a little ways, there was a building. Or, there used to be.
Conklin:
Through the sally port?
Mr. Dudgeon:
[00:14:00]
Yeah, just through that, on the right-hand side, there's a building there. And underneath was a bowling alley, and the ground level, from the street level, was the post exchange. And the next building was our quarters.
Speaker:
The one just up the hill?
Conklin:
It was a little monk cottage. Just a little-
Mr. Dudgeon:
A little cottage.
Conklin:
A little cottage, sit right on this-
Mr. Dudgeon:
And about 50 yards on up, near the ...
Conklin:
Mother's house next-door.
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
Conklin:
Beyond that would have been ...
Mr. Dudgeon:
Where the road turns and comes back up.
[00:14:30]
Conklin:
That's right. I've seen pictures of those houses. Nice old white, old houses.
Mr. Dudgeon:
The one that we had down there, you might call it a cracker box. That type.
Conklin:
But it was just a little cottage, and it was pushed right on the side, real steep, and just below us, there was the most gorgeous Shasta Daisies you ever want to see growing on the side. It was too steep to ... It would be mountain climbing to go down.
Conklin:
Were you ever afraid, with your children out there, that they may fall off the side of the island?
Conklin:
The children learned.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Very quickly.
[00:15:00]
Conklin:
It's like falling off the porch. They don't go out and fall off the porch.
Conklin:
God.
Conklin:
50 feet straight down on the cliffs.
Mr. Dudgeon:
In the four years that I was assigned there, only one time that the children gave any trouble, other than that would expect. And only one at that.
Conklin:
And what happened?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Climbed down, and couldn't get back up, on one of those steep banks.
Conklin:
He yelled and screamed, huh?
Mr. Dudgeon:
He got down there, he couldn't get back. It's just like climbing up some of these hills.
Conklin:
Who went down after him? You remember? I remember. How'd we get him back up?
[00:15:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
I think it was that ... The pilot of the launch. A Corporal.
Speaker:
Did you have a private telephone there, or, could you have?
Conklin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You had [crosstalk 00:15:48]
Speaker:
Individual?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yeah.
Speaker:
It wasn't any problem getting a phone line across?
Conklin:
Oh, no.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, no, we didn't have a phone line across to the mainland. It had to be a tow line.
[00:16:00]
Conklin:
But we could call San Francisco from there, because I called Mona all the time, and Betty used to call me when she wanted to come over.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, that's right. We did have that.
Conklin:
And then, there was an exchange there, so that the launch master could plug in and ring every phone on the island when he wanted to tell them that the launch would be available if anybody wanted to go to the basketball game or a movie.
Speaker:
Over on-
Conklin:
Angel Island.
[00:16:30]
Conklin:
Yeah. But otherwise, it was a private phone. Much better than we have where we are now. We can have 10 on the line, and you can't ever use it. We never had any trouble with that one.
Speaker:
You said when it because a federal government, they put up the fences and all, which wasn't there beforehand. Did they have outside towers while you were there? What sort of security buildings or devices?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Just that walkway around the recreation area.
Speaker:
They just figured the ocean-
[00:17:00]
Conklin:
And there were a couple big spotlights they could use if they wanted to, floodlights. They could turn on ...
Mr. Dudgeon:
Floodlights?
Conklin:
Yeah, up there toward the end, toward where the laundry and the car house were, and [crosstalk 00:17:08]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, they had a couple searchlights over there. But it wasn't a floodlight. Each corner, three corners of that exercise compound yard had a little round box out there about three feet in diameter. And if it was raining out, a sentry could sit out there.
Speaker:
I see.
[00:17:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Otherwise, he'd walk along that walkway along the top there, no protection whatever.
Conklin:
Just like a sentry walking guard, a regular post.
Speaker:
And normal prisoners would get in there, and the trustees would have duties outside the walls, right? Generally, the prisoners would just be either in their cells or in the recreation area?
Mr. Dudgeon:
That's when they weren't working.
Speaker:
Okay.
Conklin:
They worked under guard, even when they were not on [crosstalk 00:17:59]-
[00:18:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Recreation time, the trustees and the other was all in the same recreation area.
Conklin:
The guards that walked through the prison building during the daytime, were they armed, normally, the floor guards? The people that walked-
Mr. Dudgeon:
Only with a short wooden club, about that long.
Conklin:
This was [crosstalk 00:18:21], only shorter.
Conklin:
About a foot-and-a-half long?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Well, very seldom any of them carried one that long. More like about 12 inches.
Conklin:
12 inches. Okay.
Mr. Dudgeon:
But I never did see one of them use it.
[00:18:30]
Conklin:
Yeah? Did any of the guards in the prison carry guns?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Not inside.
Conklin:
Outside?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yes.
Conklin:
Okay.
Conklin:
I don't think I ever heard a shot all the time I was there.
Speaker:
And the guards wore typical Army uniforms, no modifications at all?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Regular Army uniforms. OD uniforms.
[00:19:00]
Conklin:
We had one interesting-
Mr. Dudgeon:
They wore the OD year-round at Alcatraz. They didn't wear the cotton.
Conklin:
Yeah, it's cold out there. What were you saying?
Conklin:
We had one interesting character there, he was called Lobo.
Speaker:
What is that, wolf?
Conklin:
We had a Catholic priest, and his two sisters were there as his housekeepers. And he had this big German Shepherd, and he did look like a big wolf. And he was Lobo. And he just decided he was keeper of the grounds.
[00:19:30]
And he was one of the ones that would ride herd on some of the children. And everybody thought, "Oh, those children, they shouldn't be near that dog." Lobo took care of them.
Conklin:
Kind of a nursemaid, huh?
Conklin:
He was quite a character. And the whole place belonged to him, and he was going to guard it. But it was interesting.
[00:20:00]
The Catholic priest lived on the island. Didn't we have another Chaplain there? No, I think it was just the one, didn't we?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Well, he was assigned. He was there longer than anybody else.
Conklin:
But I think only one at a time.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yeah, only one.
Conklin:
But it happened to be a Catholic priest.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Lucky to have one.
Conklin:
One of the things that I remember living there, and I think anybody who ever lived there probably, the women, anyway, was the fabulous sunsets.
[00:20:30]
We looked right out through the gate, and that was before the bridge was across the gate.
Conklin:
That must have been beautiful.
Conklin:
And in the morning, you'd see the sun come up over the back of the hills on Berkeley. And many times, you'd see the sun, and you'd see the fog coming in the gate. It would split, go both sides of the island. You couldn't see San Francisco, you couldn't see Sausalito, and we didn't have sunlight. That was amazing.
Conklin:
Do you remember the seagulls nesting? Did the birds nest on the island while you were there?
Conklin:
I don't remember any seagulls.
[00:21:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Around on the side next to Belvedere, there's a little island.
Conklin:
Little Alcatraz? That bird rock out there.
Mr. Dudgeon:
That's about as big as a hat.
Conklin:
Yeah.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Once in a while, there'd be a nest made, but it wouldn't last very long.
Conklin:
Yeah, that gets covered by water. Because they nest now a lot on the island. There was not much activity then.
Mr. Dudgeon:
[crosstalk 00:21:22] There's not as much movement on the island as there used to be.
Conklin:
Well, see, that was a busy place then.
Speaker:
But pelicans are going to be out, too, aren't they?
[00:21:30]
Conklin:
They should be showing up pretty soon.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Around on the back side of the island, facing the gate, they had a dock back there. They took the boat to the dock. They had a big rock quarry.
Conklin:
They used to quarry rock on the island?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Conklin:
And sell it?
Conklin:
They did it, long, long ago.
[00:22:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
They'd take it over to Fort Mason, and take it over to the presidio, over Fort McDowell, put it on the roads. That's where they got so many crushed rock.
Conklin:
From Alcatraz?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Speaker:
Did they do any major construction, or build many buildings while you were there?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Not many. They didn't build any.
Conklin:
I thought there was one set of officers' quarters that were over there.
Mr. Dudgeon:
They might have started that building out there on the parade grounds.
Conklin:
I thought one building-
Mr. Dudgeon:
I think that was built after ... Maybe-
Conklin:
See, Thornton's-
Mr. Dudgeon:
I believe that was started, but while I was out on CC.
[00:22:30]
Conklin:
Yeah, I think it was built while you were out on CC, because we wondered why they were building that ... Those big forests, it was Captain or Colonel's quarters, I don't know. It was a set of officers' quarters-
Mr. Dudgeon:
Bachelor officers' quarters.
Conklin:
And it was probably senior officers' quarters. We worked while they were building those. Those two there, which was practically one building, but it was two sets of quarters.
When they had those houses that were already there, and they were disbanding the place. They were vacating the place. We wondered why they built them.
Then, we thought perhaps they went ahead and built them because they were going to use them, the federal prison people were going to use them, and I don't know whether they did or not.
Conklin:
[00:23:00]
Did they come out a lot to the island and do a lot of work for ... While you were there, and they were closing, did you see a lot of new federal people show up?
Conklin:
No.
Conklin:
You got off quietly towards the end, and then they came in?
Conklin:
They cleaned out all the military, and there was no sign ... Of course, the people stayed on there with the lighthouse. The lighthouse people stayed on, on the island.
Conklin:
Were you in contact with them afterwards?
Conklin:
Oh, yes.
Conklin:
And what did they say about the change?
Conklin:
[00:24:00]
I didn't get a chance to say anything about it to the lighthouse family that stayed there, except one time when I asked her if it was much different, she says, "Oh, it isn't near as nice over here as it was. We miss the people that were here." And that was shortly after it changed over, and I guess they were isolated, more or less.
[00:24:30]
And of course, there weren't families at first, and when the federal prison people took it over, there weren't families there at first. And they asked to be transferred out of there, because they were not too happy.
Conklin:
And what were their names?
Conklin:
Oh, what was the name of that last one? I forgot now. I'm never any good at names.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Who's that?
Conklin:
The lighthouse, the ones that stayed there. The round-faced man, always looked so much younger than he was.
Mr. Dudgeon:
I don't [inaudible 00:24:44] that man's name.
Conklin:
Oh. I've forgotten the name. I could look it up.
Mr. Dudgeon:
I can see him out there, but I couldn't tell you the name.
Conklin:
Do you have any photographs? Do you have any photograph collections?
Conklin:
I don't know whether I have any of Alcatraz or not.
Mr. Dudgeon:
I don't think I have any of Alcatraz.
Conklin:
I had some, but ...
Conklin:
Do you have any friends that you lived on the island with, that you know have photographs?
[00:25:00]
Conklin:
I don't know whether or not ... The family that probably would have the most photographs, they're all gone now, but two of the girls. The Thorntons, and their sons, and one daughter are gone, they're all dead.
And the youngest daughter lives ... Where did Bruce live, in Hayward?
Mr. Dudgeon:
I don't know.
[00:25:30]
Conklin:
And I've forgotten where Mary Jane lives. I could get it through ...
Mr. Dudgeon:
Anita lives over there someplace.
Conklin:
Anita lives in Daly City.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Well, they moved over there now, huh?
Conklin:
Anita [Kingsberg 00:25:40].
Conklin:
Yeah, I'll have to get these addresses from you later. That's good.
Conklin:
But I have a sister who probably has an address book that she still might have around. Because she and Anita Thornton went to school together. They were very good friends.
Speaker:
Was this your sister who lived on the island?
Conklin:
Yes, that's the one that was married to them, and then, they were over in an apartment in the city for a while, and then they moved into one of the apartments in that building. It was called the guard building.
Conklin:
Yeah, it became known as Building 64 [crosstalk 00:25:48].
Conklin:
And it was residence for single barracks.
Conklin:
Lots of apartments.
Conklin:
[00:26:00]
And then, there were only two apartments in that [inaudible 00:26:04]. The rest of it was a guard company.
Mr. Dudgeon:
The top floor was all the apartments when the guard come-
Conklin:
The rest of it was the guard company.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Big squadron.
[00:26:30]
Conklin:
Did they use the rifle range much for practice, the one above the sally port?
Mr. Dudgeon:
[crosstalk 00:26:37] There was no rifle range there.
Conklin:
No rifle range.
Conklin:
And was there a chapel above the sally port?
Conklin:
There was a chapel, but I've forgotten where it was.
Mr. Dudgeon:
The chapel was up in the main jail.
Conklin:
In prison, I think. In the prison building.
Mr. Dudgeon:
That is the building of the room that I was trying to explain was recreation about. That was on the second floor, in the front of the building. That was the chapel.
[00:27:00]
Conklin:
Okay. That's, the latest use for that was the movie hall, and the last church was held up there.
Speaker:
Did the military commanders have a background in prison life, or prison management, or whatever?
Conklin:
Oh, no. It was run like a regular Army-
Mr. Dudgeon:
They didn't even have a background in MPs.
Speaker:
I was wondering if that could possibly explain the difference in feel between the military [crosstalk 00:27:33] and the prison [crosstalk 00:27:35].
[00:27:30]
Conklin:
It might be. It was just like, if you didn't see the prison building up there, and see those walls, you would think you were in the presidio, or Fort McDowell, or any over by Sausalito, or [crosstalk 00:27:53]
[00:28:00]
Conklin:
It was just a regular military base. [crosstalk 00:28:07]
Conklin:
Like a small outpost. Or, caretaking setup. They didn't have some things you would have on a regular post, like the rifle range, and things of that sort. They didn't have. But otherwise, they used to have a caretaking post, when it was a base post, or a fort that's just running with a skeleton crew, just to keep it up, and keep it from going to pieces.
Speaker:
Being a detention center, were there any sort of restrictions, where you asked or advised not to have guns in your house? Or, was alcohol, not to have there?
Conklin:
No.
Speaker:
Nothing? They didn't suggest anything at all?
[00:28:30]
Conklin:
There was no restrictions. You were just as free to live your life, except for some things that are military, which on any military post, there's some things you have to perform. But there was no restrictions on whether you could serve drinks or not, or anything of the sort. Of course, you couldn't have a gun.
[00:29:00]
Speaker:
Was that due to military, or due to the prison?
Conklin:
On the military post, you could have your hunting, but, you have to register it. And in some posts, you can't have it.
Speaker:
You didn't feel any restrictions because of Alcatraz?
Conklin:
As a matter of fact, I think we had a gun, but it was put away. But you couldn't have guns out.
Conklin:
It was put away in your house where you couldn't get at it? Or, they all kept it in a central cache on the island?
Conklin:
No, they didn't keep it.
Conklin:
You had it in your house, you just didn't have it out?
Conklin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
[00:29:30]
Conklin:
Okay. Did the commandant, or the person that ran the whole island, did he socialize with everybody there evenly?
Conklin:
That was one thing that was nicer in one way about it, it was a very small post, where there was not much difference in rank, especially among the families, the women and the children.
[00:30:00]
And even the commanding officers were not too rigidly conscious of rank, most of them. We just had one that was, and yet, he turned out to be not as bad they said he was going to be.
Speaker:
You mentioned they had numbers across their backs. Were they referred to ever as numbers? Did they use-
Mr. Dudgeon:
They didn't have a name. Prisoner had a number, not a name.
Speaker:
So, you'd refer to someone as "84," use his last two digits, or whatever?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Fellow who used to be a good friend of mine, his number was 15775.
[00:30:30]
Speaker:
He'd use his full number?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Conklin:
When you talked to him, you'd go, "Oh, 15775, would you come over here?"
Mr. Dudgeon:
Sure.
Conklin:
"How've you been?" Or something.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Conklin:
Who was that?
Conklin:
15775.
Mr. Dudgeon:
I don't remember his name now. He was stationed down in Monterey. He sold a blanket.
Conklin:
Yeah. I know him.
Mr. Dudgeon:
He [inaudible 00:30:59] property. He sold a blanket.
[00:31:00]
Conklin:
And that's how he ended up on Alcatraz?
Mr. Dudgeon:
[crosstalk 00:31:03] been on Alcatraz six months.
Conklin:
How long?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Six months.
Conklin:
Six months for selling a blanket.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah, for $4.00.
Conklin:
My God. I bet he regretted that.
Mr. Dudgeon:
He sold an OD shirt for $2.00.
Conklin:
Red, do you remember anything about these big stories about the Birdman of Alcatraz? That was when it was in civilian hands before the Army took it over.
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
Conklin:
When was it?
[00:31:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
After the [inaudible 00:31:31] was over.
Conklin:
[crosstalk 00:31:31] That was way up in the '50s.
Mr. Dudgeon:
That was in the '40s, wasn't it?
Conklin:
[crosstalk 00:31:34] He was transferred to a federal prison, wasn't he?
Speaker:
In Leavenworth.
Conklin:
He was transferred from Leavenworth.
Conklin:
Yeah, that's long after.
Mr. Dudgeon:
That's long after the Army was there.
Conklin:
Were there any famous prisoners while you were there? Anyone whose names we might know? No one did anything real exciting get there, huh?
[00:32:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Not that I know of. [crosstalk 00:31:59] Mostly military. Well, that's all it was, all military.
Conklin:
Breaking military law, or disobeying. In those days, if you went AWOL, you got punishment.
Mr. Dudgeon:
AWOL, you very seldom went to Alcatraz, unless you committed some other crime along with it.
Conklin:
No, but, I'm saying, they did punish, they punished AWOL then. It was a small crime, they really disciplined them. That's what it was.
[00:32:30]
Speaker:
Did they have to commit a crime of some note to get to Alcatraz? Well, your friend sold the blanket. Was it generally reserved, though, for high-risk or escape artists, or anything of this?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Well, not necessarily. They escaped from the guard house much easier than they could from Alcatraz.
Speaker:
Yeah. Did you have any pet names for the rock, or the island, or Alcatraz?
Conklin:
It was "The Rock."
[00:33:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
It was "The Rock." They called it. You'd hear somebody talking about The Rock, well, Alcatraz. That's the only place I ever knew of.
Conklin:
Everybody who's ever lived there knows. You see people, or you're around people that have ever served in that area, and we'd say, "Where were you at such a time?" "I was on The Rock." That's all you need to say.
Speaker:
How about Angel Island? Just, what, Fort McDougall, was it?
Conklin:
Fort McDowell.
Speaker:
Fort McDowell.
[00:33:30]
Conklin:
It was an immigration station, too, in the old days.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Now it's been closed.
Speaker:
Did it have any nicknames, or ...
Conklin:
I don't know.
Speaker:
Was The Rock the wrong side of the Bay, as far as they were concerned?
Mr. Dudgeon:
It was between us and San Francisco.
Conklin:
There was just a barrier between Fort McDowell and San Francisco. You had to get around the rock to get there.
Speaker:
[00:34:00]
I grew up in Oakland. People in the city are always making fun of you for being from Oakland. I didn't know if there was any sort of stigma being from The Rock.
Conklin:
Most of them didn't want to be stationed there. Now, for the men who had families, that was a nice station, in Alcatraz. But the single men, it wasn't so good, because there wasn't too much for them to do. But otherwise, there wasn't ...
Speaker:
Life wasn't any easier rougher than on Angel Island, on Fort Mason?
Conklin:
It was easier. It was more pleasant.
[00:34:30]
Conklin:
On Alcatraz?
Conklin:
Oh, yes, it was closer to San Francisco.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Much easier.
Conklin:
[00:35:00]
It was closer to San Francisco, you could get back and forth easier. You didn't have to conform so rigidly to boat schedules, because it was only a 10-minute run across there with the launch, and they had a launch master and the crew, so that they were always available, and they were very obliging, and it was perfectly all right. You wouldn't have to leave wherever you were to get down at a certain time.
Now, on Angel Island, you had to, otherwise you couldn't get over till the next day. And there were a lot of things that were nice. Of course, there were more things on Angel Island, it was a bigger place. But it still was much more convenient and pleasant on Alcatraz.
Conklin:
Could you have your own vehicle on Angel Island? Did you have your own family car?
Conklin:
No. Well, some of the people had vehicles over there.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Not on the island.
[00:35:30]
Conklin:
Not on Angel Island. I saw them over there when I used to go over there to watch you play basketball.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Only government vehicles were allowed.
Conklin:
Oh, it was government vehicles. Okay.
Mr. Dudgeon:
No private vehicles.
Speaker:
Could you take a bicycle over there, say, [crosstalk 00:35:42]?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yeah.
Speaker:
Did you have any prisoners working in the Infirmary with you? Were any trustees, or ...
Mr. Dudgeon:
I had one for about three months.
Speaker:
I mean, you have someone, where they have the ability, they could have worked there?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yes. As long as you was in there with them.
[00:36:00]
Speaker:
Did they have to refer to the military personnel as "Sir," or, "Mister So-and-So," or a title? Or, just typical military protocol?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Just, officers, "Yes, sir, no, sir." Call them their rank.
Conklin:
It was really just plain courtesy.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Courtesy.
Conklin:
"Yes, sir, no, sir." And every time they say, "Corporal, do this," instead of "So-and-so-"
Mr. Dudgeon:
And the enlisted men was, Sir, Corporal.
[00:36:30]
Conklin:
During meal times, how did that work? How long were they given to eat? Was it timed?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Usually one hour.
Conklin:
An hour for a meal. Were they served at separate tables, or was it cafeteria-style?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Well, more or less cafeteria-style in the Army.
Conklin:
You walk through, pick up your food and your tray.
Mr. Dudgeon:
You walk through, pick up the food and the tray, and go to a table and sit down.
Conklin:
And go sit down. Did they ever make a count of the silverware before and after a meal?
[00:37:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yes, quite often.
Conklin:
Were people searched coming out of the dining room if there was any silverware missing? What was the routine for that?
Mr. Dudgeon:
If they found a piece missing, they'd try to search them as they were going back, they'd leave the dining area. And they'd lock all the cells and search individuals, separate bed in their cell.
Speaker:
If one spoon were missing, would they go through this and search the entire prison?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yeah.
[00:37:30]
Speaker:
They wouldn't let anything ...
Conklin:
And what would happen to the person that took the spoon?
Mr. Dudgeon:
They seldom did anything. Maybe they took some of his freedom, what little he had.
Conklin:
Take some of the privileges away, and recreation, that kind of thing.
Conklin:
And they had recreation on the weekends?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yeah.
Conklin:
Only?
Mr. Dudgeon:
I think it was, about, I don't know in the afternoon. Wasn't it in the evenings?
[00:38:00]
Conklin:
I don't know. I don't remember.
Mr. Dudgeon:
After the work period.
Conklin:
But I know they had some time every day that they weren't working, that they could be free for ...
Mr. Dudgeon:
The ones that were out working, they didn't need any recreation.
Conklin:
I mean, for recreation, just if they wanted to.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Like the ones on KP, and that. They was inside all day. They went out.
Conklin:
But a lot of the [crosstalk 00:38:14], were not weekends.
Mr. Dudgeon:
[crosstalk 00:38:14] quarter of an hour in the afternoon, and Saturday afternoons. Sundays.
[00:38:30]
Conklin:
A lot of the programs were not on weekends. They were on a weeknight. When they used to bring them over to San Francisco, they were on weekends always.
Mr. Dudgeon:
They never did bring much over. That was very seldom.
Conklin:
Did the foghorns on the island bother you? Or, were there any while you were there?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Not as much on the island as they did over at San Francisco.
Conklin:
They don't sound as loud, we were in back of them.
Mr. Dudgeon:
You could hear it pointed down there on the marina.
Conklin:
You would hear them played on the mainland.
[00:39:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
You could hear them plainer down on that marina, than you can over on the island. Right there behind it.
Conklin:
That's interesting.
Speaker:
What did the recreation consist of? It was a fenced-in area with tiers down on the building side, is that right? Would you just sit there?
Conklin:
[crosstalk 00:39:14] Well, that was the exercise yard. You have to get out, play catch-
Mr. Dudgeon:
[crosstalk 00:39:14] Put them out in the exercise yard.
Speaker:
But they could play catch? Did they have softballs, or basketball?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yeah.
Speaker:
They had a basketball court they could play?
Conklin:
And they had, what did they play, tennis?
[00:39:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
No, they didn't have enough room, hardly. They divided it up that way. But they put a [crosstalk 00:39:32]
Conklin:
But [crosstalk 00:39:33] was gone to the Library.
Conklin:
Where was the Library located inside the prison?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Part of the chapel.
Conklin:
Which is upstairs?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Upstairs.
Conklin:
Oh. All right, that's neat.
Speaker:
They could take books back to their room, or to a cell? Could they just read there in the ...
Mr. Dudgeon:
If they had some reason to take them to their cell, or, they thought they wouldn't tear them up.
Speaker:
If they just wanted to finish reading the book, they could, if they had a good record?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
[00:40:00]
Speaker:
Do you know what they do for meals on Angel Island? Of course, they'd have lunch out there, wouldn't they, when they're working in the garden?
Mr. Dudgeon:
They'd take their meals with them.
Speaker:
One-pound box lunches, or a meal bucket?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Take a big ...
Conklin:
Field kitchen. When they had trips in the fields.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Field kitchen. Take a big stew pot, have everything cooked up in that, take it over to them. They wouldn't take it with them when they went over.
Speaker:
Oh, they'd send it over-
[00:40:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
The boat would come back, and bring their meals over to them.
Speaker:
A mess hall built on Angel Island, since they'd be eating there every day?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, yes. They [crosstalk 00:40:36] down, on the first floor, in the vegetable-
Conklin:
In the vegetable room?
Speaker:
Beneath the pigeons?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Conklin:
And then, they had a shed where they washed vegetables, and sorted them-
Mr. Dudgeon:
Lettuce down on the lower floor.
Conklin:
That was the vegetable shed, and the loft had the pigeons in it.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Two upper stories were them.
[00:41:00]
Conklin:
You had your children while you were on the island?
Conklin:
We didn't have any. We had a couple nephews staying on us a while.
Speaker:
What did they do for fun? Just go rock climbing, get stuck on a cliff? Or poke around?
Conklin:
What?
Speaker:
What did the children do for entertainment? Just what kids will do when they're [crosstalk 00:41:22]
Conklin:
Just amuse themselves. [crosstalk 00:41:22]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Just like kids anyplace.
Conklin:
No special little funny games, because it was Alcatraz?
Conklin:
Oh, no.
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
[00:41:30]
Conklin:
And of course, they went to school on the launch.
Conklin:
What school in San Francisco did they go to?
Conklin:
In the marina, for a while, didn't they had a school up on Angel Island?
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
Conklin:
No, I guess they didn't. The school-
Mr. Dudgeon:
the school that they went to is right up there on ...
Conklin:
Right on the coast of Fort Mason.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Ben Franklin. Or Mount Franklin.
Conklin:
Yeah, it's still there. I forgot the name.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Post. Ben Post.
[00:42:00]
Conklin:
And then, the high school was over there a little farther in the marina. Not the marina high school, but it was in the marina district. Right close to Fort Mason.
Mr. Dudgeon:
That was the high school that ...
Conklin:
[00:42:30]
That was the high school that Junior went to, when he first started. At the edge of the marina district there, where you have the big park, and playgrounds, and then, the school, and then, Fort Mason.
I'm taking over your place, eh?
Speaker 5:
No. I came to listen.
Conklin:
And there was a school down closer to Van Ness, and then, there's a high school right at the edge of Chestnut.
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, you mean that school right there at Fort Mason?
Conklin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mr. Dudgeon:
You mean the school at the edge of Fort Mason?
Conklin:
Yeah. West of Fort Mason. That's where the old gas company used to be [crosstalk 00:43:00]
Mr. Dudgeon:
There's no school down there.
[00:43:00]
Conklin:
No, it's up on Chestnut.
Conklin:
Did the school kids have a stigma because they were from Alcatraz? Do you know if they were treated differently at school?
Conklin:
I don't think so.
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
Conklin:
Was it a novelty to live on Alcatraz? Were they giving them any ...
Conklin:
No, it was just another military post, and there was three or four of them around the area. There was Fort Scott, Fort Mason.
[00:43:30]
Conklin:
There was no hierarchy of military posts when all the military personnel got together? There was no ...
Conklin:
No.
Mr. Dudgeon:
No.
Conklin:
No big deal, wherever you ended up in your station?
What were your feelings when you were assigned to Alcatraz? Or, did you ask to be sent?
Mr. Dudgeon:
I don't remember whether I asked to be sent over there or not.
Conklin:
Were you excited about moving?
Mr. Dudgeon:
[00:44:00]
I think I wanted to get off of Fort McDowell, because I didn't think I was getting along very good with the commanding officer. I thought it would be a good idea to transfer.
Conklin:
To transfer. Were you excited about moving?
Conklin:
I never [crosstalk 00:44:04] on his island. We weren't married when he was on Angel Island.
Conklin:
Oh, so ... You got married to him while he was stationed on Alcatraz?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Yeah.
Conklin:
Oh. And did you ever think of getting married on the island?
Conklin:
No.
Conklin:
Not a chance.
Conklin:
Just admit it?
Mr. Dudgeon:
I hadn't thought about that.
Conklin:
I had an apartment over in the marina.
[00:44:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Will you ask about ... If Selina's had a chance to go over on the island?
Conklin:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mr. Dudgeon:
When they had a special event on the island that included the prisoners, they usually let their sweeties come over, like a prize fight, or something like that.
[00:45:00]
They'd have at least four of them every year. Most of them are grudge fights.
Conklin:
Grudge fights?
Conklin:
They had boxing over there, so they let [crosstalk 00:45:06]
Mr. Dudgeon:
Among the prisoners.
Conklin:
They'd let them fight it out legally?
Mr. Dudgeon:
That's the only way they'd let them fight. They wouldn't let them fight unless it was a grudge fight, fight in the ring.
Conklin:
Wow.
Speaker:
Where was the boxing ring? Upstairs?
[00:45:30]
Mr. Dudgeon:
No, they built a ring out on the parade route. Between the bluff, and where that new building is out there, just above the horn.
Conklin:
Yeah, the fog horn.
Speaker:
That's just done once a year, you said? It wasn't a common legal occurrence, to have a boxing match?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Oh, no. That was special.
Speaker:
It's an actual prize fight, though? They'd have some sort of award, or, just the glory of being the winner?
Mr. Dudgeon:
Just the glory of being the winner. And the last one they had-
(silence)
