The Voices of Fort Winfield Scott

Fort Winfield Scott

Goldne Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 38738

Fort Winfield Scott was built in 1912. The need to expand the Presidio and house the artillery regiments in a different location from the regular army and cavalry troops became important. As different kinds of soldiers became necessary the importance of training and housing quickly followed. The many Presidio sub post designation follows these creations and modifications to what is defined as the US Regular Army. But the stories found on this page are the personal stories from those who lived here.

For More History of Fort Winfield Scott

For More Information on Fort Winfield Scott

 

1990 Fort Scott Map discussed in the interview

Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA-3944

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"The post headquarters of Fort Scott. That's where I was based. On the opposite end, when you're going towards the Golden Gate Bridge"- Anita Rao

 

• Anita Rao

  
  

  Anita Rao discusses San Francisco and being in the military and at Fort Winfield Scott in the 1980s

  Date created:

  04/09/2024

  Audio Transcript

  	Section 1 of 4      [00:00:00 - 00:28:04] (NOTE: speaker names may be different in each section)
  Martini: [00:00:30]	Okay, take two. Today's Wednesday, September 19th, 2018, and this is an oral history recording for the Park Archives of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. My name's John A. Martini, his historian, and I'll be the interviewer. Our informant today is Ms. Anita Rao, who served as an enlisted soldier at the Presidio of San Francisco in the 1980s. Anita, can you give me your full name and spell your last name, your birthdate, and your address?
  Rao:	Anita Rao, R-A-O, 23, November 1962, is my birthday. I am in Oakland, California. PO Box 30515, Oakland, California, 94604.
  Martini: [00:01:00]	Okay. Again, for the record, you understand this recording is being made for the park archives of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. It'll become a public document, and you give to the Park Service and the United States of America all literary and property rights, title, and interest that you may possess to the tape recording and transcript of the interview.
  Rao:	No worries.
  Martini: [00:01:30]	No worries. All right. I should explain to tape, Anita and I have known each other for several years, so if it's less formal than some interviews, it's because we're friends and always get some personal background.
  Rao:	Okay.
  Martini:	So, give me your birthdate. Where were you born?
  Rao:	I was born in Washington, DC, and I think it's the Georgetown University Hospital in Washington, DC, that's moved across the street since then.
  Martini:	Okay. What were your folks doing?
  Rao: [00:02:00]	My dad was here. He followed his brother, who was in the United Nations representing India, and he came over here to study. My mother, apparently, from what she told me, was studying nursing, and they met on a blind date there.
  Martini:	Oh, okay. So, did you grow up in the DC area?
  Rao:	No, I was six months old, approximately, when my parents took us back to India. Actually, my dad took me back to India. My mom went to India for the first time.
  Martini:	Okay, so you're Indian American?
  Rao:	Yep.
  [00:02:30] Martini:	Okay. Born in DC.
  Rao:	Yeah.
  Martini:	So, you lived in India for how long?
  Rao: [00:03:00]	Oh gosh, off and on. I was there from the age of six months, and I was in Delhi the whole time, in New Delhi. One year, my mother moved to the US when I was eight. Out of the four kids, I was the one that went with her, and she lived in Springfield, Missouri, for a short time. I missed my family so much, my brothers, my sister, and my father, because they were all in India. I missed them so much that I went back. I flew back as a first-time unaccompanied minor on a plane to India. You
  Martini:	You Did? Oh, geez.
  Rao: [00:03:30]	Yes. Then I came back again. I believe I was around... I think I was 13, 14, or something like that. That time I came with my mother, my younger sister, and my older brother. My oldest brother was already in the US at that time.
  Martini:	Okay. So, you were back and forth.
  Rao:	Yeah, and then I went back again. I think it was when I was 17. It was back and forth, back and forth because my parents were not in the same place.
  Martini:	Right.
  Rao:	Yeah.
  Martini:	So, you're fluent in Hindi?
  Rao: [00:04:00]	Yeah, pretty fluent. Although my father's language is a South Indian language from Andhra Pradesh, it's called Telugu. But he worked in Delhi. So in the house, we would speak Telugu because all the people working in the house would be Telugu speakers pretty much most of the time. We would practice our very bad Telugu with them. That, because we didn't know how to speak formally. We only knew the informal former speaking, but the minute we stepped out of the house, it was Hindi. It was Hindi or English. My parents spoke in English in the house because that's the only language they had in common.
  [00:04:30] Martini:	So, we'll get into this a little bit later, but how many languages do you speak?
  Rao:	I speak seven, although I probably call it six and a half because my Italian is influenced by my Spanish, so I call it Spitalian.
  Martini:	Where were you living in the United States when it first got in your head that maybe joining the US Army would be your future?
  Rao: [00:05:00] [00:05:30]	I was living in San Jose. So, when my mother came back with us, she basically had the choice to go to a couple of places where we had some relatives. So, the place we ended up going, was San Jose, California, and we stayed with a cousin of my mom's cousin. Then eventually, with a bit of time, we finally got an apartment, and my mom got a job. My mom took a while to get a job because she has a disability, and she has problems sitting and standing for too long. So, it took almost a year for her to get a job at the public library over there in San Jose. They accommodated her with her disability.
  Martini:	So how old were you at this point?
  Rao:	Now, I've got to think because when I first came, I was in middle school, and I believe I was in the ninth grade.
  Martini:	Okay.
  Rao:	I think I was 14 then. I don't know how old is a ninth grader. 13 maybe.
  Martini:	13, 14.
  [00:06:00] Rao:	I don't remember. I was at John Muir Junior High School.
  Martini:	You went on to high school?
  Rao:	Yeah. I went to Pioneer High School in San Jose and then Gunderson High School, and that's where I graduated from high school.
  Martini:	So, tell me about signing up for the Army.
  [00:06:30] Rao:	I had to remember stuff, but my brother used to go to a church. At that church, there was a girl. Her name was Belinda. Belinda was going to the military, and she had a really good friend, I guess. I don't know if he was a friend because he was her recruiter or whether he just was at the church. But Willie used to be... We used to go to the same church, and so Belinda started talking to me about it because I didn't know what to do with myself once I got out of high school. I wanted to go to college, but I didn't have any money.
  [00:07:00] Martini:	That was a problem.
  Rao: [00:07:30]	Yeah, and I don't feel like anybody gave me any direction. So, my mother was just busy trying to make ends meet, kind of thing. So, when Belinda said that I was like, "Nah, I'm not interested." I was like, "Me, military?" It was not even in my realm of existence. But then Willie started talking to me, and I think between the two... She said that she wanted me to go in as a buddy. That's what I remembered that something about us going in as buddies, that we could go through basic together, or we could be based together, or something like that.
  Martini:	I don't think that's exactly how the army works.
  Rao: [00:08:00]	Yeah, it didn't happen that way. So maybe a little naive. But Willie started talking to me, and he was telling me something about me being able to get some kind of a bonus when I went in. As far as I can remember, it was something like $5,000 or something that I eventually got. It was because of me being a woman and me being of another cultural background that I was a double minority, is what I call it, -
  Martini:	Female and perspective.
  Rao: [00:08:30]	I'm from another culture. I was like, when I heard an amount to that, I was like, "Whoa, what?" I think I was 18 at the time. I graduated from high school in 1981. So, the conversation started around that time, and 1982 is when I finally went in. Definitely, the money had something to do with it because it showed me a way that I could go to college. Basically, I had no idea what I wanted to study. All I know is that in India, we are always... It's just inculcated in us that you have to go to college.
  [00:09:00] Martini:	That must have been a huge draw, the built-down as the bonus, but assistance with college.
  Rao:	Yes.
  Martini:	Okay.
  Rao:	Absolutely. I felt so lost. I didn't really know what to do or how to do stuff, and that just seemed like the offer that sounded good at the time because I couldn't think of anything else that I wanted to do.
  Martini:	So, it just went down to the local recruiter and signed up?
  Rao:	No, Willie's the one at the church.
  Martini:	Let's clarify. Willie is?
  Rao:	Willie was a recruiter-
  Martini:	Oh, Willie.
  [00:09:30] Rao:	... at the church. I can't remember his last name, but he was the one that got me, and then he made me do all the paperwork and stuff. I did go somewhere, but I can't remember that stuff. It's hazy in my head. But I did end up going to the ASVAB, I believe, was the test that I took. ASVAB was some kind of a test to join the military. You had to take a test of some sort. I can't remember what it was called. I think ASVAB is what I remember.
  Martini:	A-S-V-A-B?
  Rao:	Yeah.
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Rao:	Something like that.
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Rao:	Yeah.
  [00:10:00] Martini:	So, did you have any inkling of exactly what you wanted to do when you got in?
  Rao: [00:10:30]	I did not, but since I spoke three languages already, my father's language, Telugu, Hindi, because I grew up in the north in India, and then English, of course, because of my mom, but also because in India we went to English-medium schools and we were colonized by the British, all my friends spoke English and everything, but I was always already trilingual. Then somebody had mentioned something about the Defense Language Institute. So, I was like, "Oh, okay." I didn't really think about studying a language, but because I was in high school for a short time in Delhi, in an American high School in Delhi, and they wanted me to learn a foreign language, and they didn't consider any of my languages as foreign languages, they made me choose a language, and I didn't really care what language I did. I was just trying to do my prerequisites.
  [00:11:00]	So, I closed my eyes and put your finger on some language and, "Okay. There, that's the language." And it happened to be French, and I had a really great teacher. He was Quebecois, and he was just crazy. He would jump all over the place, throw things, and keep your attention. So, without wanting to learn, you do. So, I learned, and I think that kind of opened this idea that I could learn another language. Because for me, my other languages weren't foreign, but that was a foreign language for me, French.
  Martini:	French.
  [00:11:30] Rao:	So, when that was offered to me, I was like, "Oh, okay." But which language? Who knew what language I wanted to study? I didn't have any plan, actually.
  Martini:	So, did you go through the process of, after enlisting, going into basic training?
  Rao:	I did. I also took the test to be able to see if I was capable of going to the Defense Language Institute, but I failed.
  Martini:	Oh, you did?
  [00:12:00] Rao: [00:12:30]	Yes, I did. It's because I don't learn very logically. I just learned. So, they gave me some kind of... It was some kind of patterns that I had to see to be able to identify grammar or things like that. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it made absolutely no sense to me. It was completely... It was so rational, but I'm not a rational person. You just learn stuff. So anyway, I failed. So that was the end of that.
  Martini:	This is right when you're enlisting, -
  Rao:	Yes.
  Martini:	... when you took the test?
  Rao: [00:13:00]	Yes. I failed. So, at that time, they had said, "Okay, if you want, you can wait and then take the test again." I think it was like in six months you could take the test again, something like that. They said, "You could wait, and we could delay your joining the military. Delay for a little while." I was like, "No, I don't want to delay anything. I want to go." Because by that time I was just like, my mind was already working in that direction. I didn't know what else to do with myself. I was working at... I think it was Mervyn's I was working at. It was nothing that interesting. So, I said, "No, I'll go as soon as you can send me." And I think there was a delay of maybe three months or something before I actually took off. But I started going to the gym and stuff like that because I was kind of freaked out about the fact that I was not very sporty.
  [00:13:30] Martini:	You wanted to get in shape to go into the Army.
  Rao:	That's right, and I saw a couple of movies that scared the crap out of me. Sorry. I think Private Benjamin was the one that I saw, but Goldie Hawn, -
  Martini:	Yes.
  Rao: [00:14:00]	... and oh, just seeing the sergeants shouting at her in the face like that, I was like, "Whoa, I got to be ready for that." And then I thought An Officer and a Gentleman too, I saw. That also scared me. I have to say that because of those two films, nothing scared me after that.
  Martini:	So, in both of them, what they had in common was a non-commissioned officer that was being ruthless, whip you into shape.
  Rao:	Yeah.
  Martini:	So, do you remember where you went for your intake and your basic training?
  Rao: [00:14:30] [00:15:00]	Let's see. So, I ended up actually being flown over, I think, it was in New York. I think it was Fort Hamilton or something, it's called. It's up there in New York. I went over there because my parents were visiting. Parents, meaning my father and my stepmother, who's Indian. So, I decided that I would go from there. So, we worked it out that I could start my military experience from there. So, I actually started in the East Coast for all the stuff, getting my uniform, cutting my hair, all that kind of stuff. Then I went to basic training in Fort Dix, New Jersey. I can't remember. I thought it was eight weeks, I think.
  [00:15:30] [00:16:00]	At the end of my training over there, it was sometime in November, that was the end of my training, and I remember that it started snowing, and I had not really experienced snow except when I was a kid. That was not very comfortable. But my parents came and visited me. My stepmother, my father, and my brother came to visit me, and later on, my brother joined the military. I thought he had come up with the idea, but it's not true. I came up with the idea. So anyway, later on, he did join the military. So after that, I did my advanced individual training in Fort Jackson, South Carolina, or was it North Carolina? Wait a minute. I don't remember. South Carolina? It's one of the Carolinas. I can't remember. I thought that was six weeks or eight weeks again, something like that.
  Martini:	So, the process for you was, you had an intake where you said, basically, they physically turned you into a soldier, and then they sent you to Fort Dix for basic.
  Rao:	Basic training.
  Martini:	Was that a physical specialty? Firearms?
  Rao: [00:16:30]	Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm telling you, I felt like Private Benjamin pretty often because they would make you do some stuff. I was naive. I really didn't know what I was joining. I just found an opportunity, it came my way, and I took it. I remember we used to have to have these rocket launchers. We would have to learn about the rocket launchers. You'd put them on your shoulders.
  Martini:	Bazookas?
  Rao:	Yeah. We used to call it a rocket launcher.
  Martini:	I know the type you mean.
  Rao:	You used to put it-
  Martini:	Yes, yes, yes.
  Rao:	... on your shoulder. It's like a round thing, and it goes forward. I vaguely remember that. Then I remember the mines, those, what are they called? The clay something?
  Martini:	Claymore.
  [00:17:00] Rao: [00:17:30]	Claymore mines, that's it. They used to stand like a little TV-types on the ground. I remember that we had to throw a hand grenade. That one I really remember because I threw it. Then I was looking up on my toes, trying to see where it was going. Next thing I know, the sergeant throws me to the ground, and he says, "What do you think you're doing?" I'm like, "I'm just trying to see where it went." I really didn't get the gravity of some stuff. I just didn't. I remember we'd have live fire on top of our heads, and we used to have to low crawl under the barbed wire. That was pretty interesting, but it was like being in an obsolete course of sorts. But I remember that low crawling on the ground. But it was a whole other world.
  Martini:	Just in those movies.
  [00:18:00] Rao:	Yeah, it was really something. My sergeant, though, my drill sergeant, he was a big teddy bear. His name was Sergeant Holloman, and he was African American. He had these dimples and big, chubby cheeks. He was really nice. Really nice, meaning for military standards. But he couldn't intimidate. He gets so mad at me because I couldn't do pushups very well. I'm a tall girl, and plus, I wasn't very physical. I'd always be the last one, always, "Oh, you're not going to get a pass this weekend."
  [00:18:30]	"Okay. I'm doing the best I can." And I keep saying, I think this is a line I got from Goldie Hawn. It was like, "You can control my body, but you can't control my soul. You can control my body, but you can't control my soul." And I kept saying that, and I was fine, and I just tried my best, that's all. What I found out is that if you go to church, you could always meet the boys over there anyway, so it didn't matter. I was like, "Okay, don't give me a pass. I'm doing my best, but I'll go to church then."
  Martini:	So the unit that you were in was all women, -
  Rao:	Yeah.
  [00:19:00] Martini:	But there was socializing at the chapel?
  Rao: [00:19:30]	Absolutely. There was socializing going on. I remember it was women over there, but at advanced individual training, which was in Fort Jackson, we were mixed. The platoon was mixed, as far as I remember. That was our advantage, basically the profession that we were choosing. So, I was assigned to be a 71 Lima. 71 Lima as an administrator specialist, basically a secretary.
  Martini:	So to back up for that, -
  Rao:	71L.
  Martini:	... 71L. That would also be called your MOS, -
  Rao:	Yeah, that's my MOS.
  Martini:	... your military occupation service, -
  Rao:	Right
  Martini:	... or military occupation specialty.
  Rao:	Yeah. Although I didn't even know what it stood for. We called it our MOS, but we didn't know what it stood for.
  Martini:	71 Lima. So, at this point, you're still waiting to hear about getting the Defense Language Institute someday?
  [00:20:00] Rao:	At that point, I kind of forgot about it for a while.
  Martini:	Oh, okay.
  Rao:	Yeah. I forgot about it because I was being trained to be a secretary, and I was going to go and be sent to my base because I could have waited before I even started everything. If I had waited six more months, then I could have tried the test again.
  Martini:	Right.
  Rao:	If I'd passed it, then I could have started right from the beginning to go to school, but I didn't want to wait, so I did that later.
  Martini:	So, your advanced individual training, 71L,
  Rao:	Yeah.
  Martini:	... is that something you chose, or did they just say...
  [00:20:30] Rao:	They assigned it.
  Martini:	They assigned it to you.
  Rao:	I was just a high school graduate, and I don't think there was anything that I particularly shined about.
  Martini:	So, what did you know about when you finished, you advanced, you were going to be being shipped out here to San Francisco?
  Rao: [00:21:00]	That's when they assigned us, and I don't remember exactly when I first heard it, but I was like, "That's crazy. I'm going right back to where I started from." Because I left the military from the East Coast, and I was hoping to be going somewhere away-
  Martini:	Someplace that are-
  Rao:	... from things I knew.
  Martini:	Instead, you're back in California.
  Rao:	Instead, I'm back in California, in San Francisco. It was crazy to me because I didn't necessarily want to be so close to family. For me, I was starting on a whole new adventure.
  Martini:	Were you maybe hoping to go overseas or something?
  [00:21:30] Rao: [00:22:00]	Yeah, I think I did. I probably did because I just wanted to go away. I wanted to go away. Definitely, seeing the US wasn't so exciting. For me, of course, going overseas was much more exciting. When they gave me the Presidio of San Francisco, first of all, I'd hardly been to San Francisco. In fact, from what I can remember, the first time I ever went to San Francisco was when it was going, related to join the military. It was the first time I ever went that way. So it was all new to me when I did get there. It's not like I really knew anything about San Francisco, but I was just like, geographically, that's too close to home. That's too close to San Jose.
  Martini:	So, for a timeline, when did you first arrive here at the Presidio?
  Rao: [00:22:30]	Okay, so what I remember is that I was in training on my 19th birthday, and I was not in the Presidio yet at that point because I was still in training. So, I believe that basic was ended around November sometime, and I think that was Christmas that I was at Fort Jackson. Then we ended up having a little bit of a Christmas break during my training, and then went back in January, and then right after that, I came to Presidio. So, it must've been around February, March, something like that.
  [00:23:00] Martini:	All right. Which part of the many operations going on here at the Presidio, what did they assign you to?
  Rao: [00:23:30]	They assigned me to Fort Scott, up on the hill, away from the Sixth Army headquarters. We knew nothing about those people down there. We were in our own little campus up on Fort Scott, and I was assigned to the United States Army Intelligence Command, USA INSCOM. It was our own little world out there. We were based in the barracks over there with other people from other... I don't know. Whatever they want to call it, divisions, they weren't all with me in USA INSCOM. We had a very small little operation, and it was a very intimate setting for being in the military compared to everybody else. My assignment was unique, and I was in my own little La-la land up there.
  [00:24:00] Martini:	Before we get into your specific duties, the Army Intelligence Command that was up there, was it part of the Sixth US Army?
  Rao:	Now, that's a question I couldn't even answer you, because all I know is of the United States Army Intelligence Command up on Fort Scott. That's all I can tell you. I don't even remember.
  Martini:	They didn't brief you on the big picture, "This is how it goes up to the president." Or something?
  Rao:	We have to remember what your chain of command is.
  Martini:	Right.
  [00:24:30] Rao:	Your ultimate chain of command is the President of the United States. At that time, I believe it was Thurgood Marshall, that was the chief justice. So the United States at that time, I think it was Thurgood Marshall, if it wasn't, then it was right after that that Thurgood Marshall became the Chief Justice. But we had this whole chain of command that we had to remember. I don't remember what that was exactly. But I didn't know that I was part of the Sixth Army at all. I mean, don't think we were, though. I'm not sure. I don't know.
  [00:25:00] Martini:	There were a lot of different commands going on here at the Presidio in those days.
  Rao:	Yeah, we were all in our own little world, really. Honestly, that's what I say, that I feel like I was so uninformed in a lot of ways because I just didn't care. I wasn't interested. I was in my own little world, and I didn't know much.
  Martini:	So, what did they have you doing for the... What was the acronym, again, you used?
  Rao:	USA INSCOM.
  Martini:	USA INSCOM.
  Rao:	Yeah.
  [00:25:30] Martini:	Okay. What did they have you doing?
  Rao: [00:26:00]	To work there, you needed at least a secret clearance. So, we used to have different documents. You would have confidential, you would have secret, and you have top secret. They were all different colors. I believe top secret was red, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not totally sure, but anything that had a top secret, I didn't have that clearance. I only had a clearance up to a secret, and basically, I was a secretary, and I was a secretary, within a division within USA INSCOM, and the main administrative office was 1201. What is that plate? I forgot the street name over there.
  Martini:	Oh, you don't need the street name.
  Rao:	But anyway...
  Martini:	But it was at the very head of the parade ground.
  Rao:	Yeah.
  Martini:	The old post headquarters building is what it was for Fort Scott.
  Rao: [00:26:30]	Yeah, exactly. That's what we call it. The post headquarters of Fort Scott. That's where I was based. On the opposite end, when you're going towards the Golden Gate Bridge, the bunkers are over there.
  Martini:	Right.
  Rao:	That's where the true-blue military intelligence people were, and we weren't allowed to go in there.
  Martini:	Do you remember which building?
  Rao:	Yes, I do. I can't remember to tell you the number, but it was right there near the bunkers.
  Martini:	Was it one of the big barracks buildings?
  Rao:	It was across the street. So, where's the parking? That's the parking lot. So that's it.
  Martini:	Okay.
  Rao:	Yeah, that's it.
  Martini:	On the map. She's twin building 1648, -
  Rao:	Yep.
  [00:27:00] Martini:	... which is directly behind Battery Godfrey. So, why'd you call them the true-blue military intelligence people?
  Rao: [00:27:30] [00:28:00]	We didn't know what went on in there. We were not allowed to go there. The only thing that I did do was go over there a couple of times, and that we had... He was a first lieutenant or second lieutenant. There was a young girl and a young guy, both of them very attractive, and they were either first or second lieutenants. The guy had a beautiful car, and he was very handsome. So, we would go over there, and we'd look at his car, look at him. What I remember is that the fraternization idea at the time was not something that was really drilled into us because we were such a small unit up there that we were relaxed with each other in a lot of ways, even though I would definitely always salute them when I was outside in uniform, all that stuff. But we'd have our banter going on.
  Martini:	Really?
  Rao:	Yes.
  Martini:	So, it wasn't-
  	Section 1 of 4      [00:00:00 - 00:28:04]
  	Section 2 of 4      [00:28:00 - 00:56:04] (NOTE: speaker names may be different in each section)
  Rao:	We'd have our banter going on.
  Martini:	Really?
  Rao:	Yes.
  Martini:	So, it wasn't an intense military atmosphere? It was-
  Rao:	Not really. We were such a small, little, tiny group.
  Martini:	Did you ever have any folks who were... What would you describe it? Was it a platoon or a battalion? How do you describe your unit?
  Rao:	I thought we were like a battalion, but we were probably the size of a platoon. A small platoon.
  Martini:	A small platoon.
  [00:28:30] Rao:	We weren't that big. I mean, many times when I hear other people's military experiences, I'm like, wow, that is so different from what I went through. You start realizing that you're the exception, not the rule.
  Martini:	The time period to put this together... This is well after Vietnam has ended.
  Rao:	Oh yeah.
  Martini:	It's before the Berlin Wall falls, so it's technically the tail end of the Cold War.
  [00:29:00] Rao:	Yeah. I started in 1982 when I started my training at the end of the year. I think it was around April '87 when I got out of the military. That was just the time period that I was there. I was kind of ignorant about what was going on as far as even politically or anything really.
  Martini:	Can you talk at all about any of the information that you were handling, that, what it was concerned with? What were they-
  Rao:	I can't even remember any honestly-
  Martini:	Without breaking any-
  [00:29:30] Rao: [00:30:00]	But what I can tell you is that basically I was a secretary. I was really good at typing on a manual typewriter. I was almost a hundred words a minute. I made mistakes, but I was pretty good at a hundred words a minute, which is probably why I was given 71 Lima assignment. I'm not sure. I remember one thing is that they introduced this kind of word processor. I remember, I think it was called a Lexitron. At that time, it was like, none of us had ever seen anything like it. I ended up being the one that had to use that equipment. It was a little learning curve, but wow, it really made things a lot faster and easier. Now it kind of blows my mind, because I'm so bad at learning tech of any sort. And yet, I was the innovator at that time.
  [00:30:30]	Everybody used to come to me to type all kinds of stuff. I did all kinds of stuff. Some of it is just letters, some of it... whatever. I don't even remember. It wasn't anything that memorable really. I was kind of like the go-to person for typing for everybody. I remember, even people that I wasn't working under directly, would come and walk in... officers and ask me to type things. My sergeant, I think he was a master sergeant, or... I have his face in my head, but I can't remember his name. He was the one in charge of me. Everybody was supposed to go through him. Many times, they would just, anybody would walk in and ask me to type stuff.
  Martini:	Oh, so that is informal.
  Rao:	Very informal.
  [00:31:00] Martini:	So, let's talk about that for a second. Do you remember who you reported to... Your next above you was?
  Rao: [00:31:30] [00:32:00]	So besides that, sergeant, I think staff-sergeant. I think he was or master-sergeant. Besides him it was, basically it was the officers. I remember there was a female officer, she was a captain... can't remember her name. She would come... she was the one who was on top of my sergeant who was in charge. Then there was also Major Hyde, and Major Hyde was from the South somewhere. Great guy. We had a formal, but informal, way of talking to each other. It was really very different than what you would think. Then we also had a captain, and he was African American. He was just hilarious. He had his wife and he had, I don't know, three kids I think it was. And we would ask him about his kids and things like that. So it was really very unusual.
  Martini:	Again, continue this very informal.
  Rao:	Yeah. I didn't know it was different at the time. For me, I thought it was status quo.
  Martini:	Who would've been above him?
  [00:32:30] Rao:	Above my major? I know that the commander at the time was a lieutenant colonel. I think it was Donald Acheson. I think it was a A-C-H-E-S-O-N or something like that.
  Martini:	You remember that he lived in that big, brick house with-
  Rao:	Behind-
  Martini:	...a big lawn in front of it? Yeah, it was the old commanding officer's house.
  Rao:	I mean, he used to come from back there. I'm presuming that's where he came from, because he would just walk over to the offices right there.
  Martini:	Yep, you don't get much closer than that.
  Rao:	No.
  [00:33:00] Martini:	Now you yourself... you were living, you identified as building number 12-0-5, one of the lookalike barracks at Fort Scott. Right in the middle, actually.
  Rao:	Yeah, right in the middle.
  Martini:	On the west side.
  Rao:	Yep, it was all gals.
  Martini:	All gals.
  Rao: [00:33:30]	My room had the advantage of having... Wait, you go inside the building, and you go all the way to the end to the left. I had the last room, which was actually one that had a door from inside but also had a door from outside. And also had a window from the other side. So when we would come, bring stuff from somewhere... My roommate would go to the Korean market. She would bring these big towers of kimchi, and it was too heavy to bring it in, carry it in. So, we would open the window and then just pass it through the window.
  Martini:	That's a lot of kimchi!
  Rao: [00:34:00]	Yeah, I remember when I first was moving there, everybody was like, "how can you live with that smell?" I was like, "are you kidding me? I love it." It was full of garlic. Loved it, loved it, loved it.
  Martini:	So, you had a building full of women. This isn't like the old, everybody's in bunk beds in a giant room. You guys had an apartment?
  Rao:	It was kind of like an apartment, yeah. I mean, we didn't have a kitchen or anything. We used to go to the mess hall for that.
  Martini:	[inaudible 00:34:19].
  Rao: [00:34:30] [00:35:00]	One of the buildings was the mess hall, but that was our barracks. We had three beds from what I remember. Well, two at the beginning was me and just my roommate, the Korean girl. Then later on, we got a third one. It was kind of like, one towards the door that was going outside. One was the bed flush with the wall that went inside the door, that went inside the building. Then one was close to the window, on the other side. So, there was three of us. And my third roommate was a gal named Wendy, and I believe that she was lesbian. I didn't know that at the time, because I didn't know anything about anything. It really was learning on the fly as I go. But I got along great with them. She was Caucasian, and my other roommate was Korean.
  Martini: [00:35:30]	So first... Earlier we drove up to Fort Scott. We met a few barracks. What you described for clarification, was on the very first floor looking right out on the parade ground, at the extreme south end of the building, first floor room with windows facing outside, and a wonderful door to the outside.
  Rao: [00:36:00]	Yes. Yes. Yes. So, you could kind of slip in and slip out without anybody knowing. That's why I feel that it hardly ever went up to the first floor, second floor. I hardly ever went there, because I had my other way to get out. Basically, I'd go inside the building only to have a shower. I think I went up those stairs a few times, maybe to meet somebody. It wasn't like I had major friends up there. I always went out, went out. And that's where I met the people that I was in contact with.
  Martini:	So, any ballpark estimate how many women were living in there?
  Rao: [00:36:30]	I don't know. There was three of us in that room. I mean, I would say at least 60. Maybe it was a hundred. I don't know. I hardly ever saw anybody. The thing is, that because I had my own door, we kind of did our own thing. I mean everybody else had to go through that main door. We didn't.
  Martini:	Did they have you do formations in the morning or for special events out on the parade ground?
  Rao:	We had exercise's that we used to do sometimes. There used to be stairs that used to go down the hill straight to Fort Scott. I remember going down those stairs several times. We used to run over there on the waterfront over there. But I also remember going down-
  [00:37:00] Martini:	Do you mean Crissy Field?
  Rao: [00:37:30]	Yeah, exactly. Exactly. From Port Point, and Crissy Fields. I also remember that we did go down to the main post, running down by the cemetery. We did that. The other way down towards Bakers Beach, maybe we did it also. It's all very vague in my head. Also, I remember that we used to do, go to the post gym, which is the Y M C A right now. We used to go to the post gym a lot, and we used to do classes over there too. I remember that I did an aerobics class over there. I remember that later on the aerobics that I learned... At that time, I don't think that people had to be really certified to be aerobic instructors. I had my first aerobics class over there, and people used to always talk about how I was so slow that I couldn't run and stuff. I thought, well, I'll show you. You just join an aerobics class with me, and I'll show you. So anyway, we used to go to the post gym a lot.
  [00:38:00] Martini:	Now what about, I'm thinking of-
  Rao:	Our P E test? Do you want to know about our P E test?
  Martini:	Oh, definitely. Tell me about that.
  Rao:	Our P E test was from Fort Point all the way down to the... What is that called? The St. Francis Yacht Club now?
  Martini:	Yeah, the whole-
  Rao:	...Used to be the officers, it was an officer’s club or what was it?
  Martini:	The St. Francis Yacht Club?
  Rao:	Yeah. Wasn't it for the officers at that time? I can't remember what was there exactly.
  Martini:	It was a private yacht club. Very Tony's. Still is.
  [00:38:30] Rao:	We used to run to those steps over there. That was our course. That was about two miles.
  Martini:	Yes.
  Rao:	I had to do that a lot. I was always the worst, always. I think the maximum that it could be to pass the test was 22 minutes for two miles. I just barely made it.
  Martini:	Just barely made it.
  Rao:	Yes.
  Martini:	You mentioned your roommates when you were in, what was the makeup like racially of the peacetime army at Fort Scott?
  [00:39:00] Rao:	I can't tell you exactly in my barracks how it was. I know that I was around a lot of African Americans, and Latinos, and some Filipinos, and my roommate. That's the only Korean I ever saw. I definitely didn't see anybody that was from India, for sure. My main contact was with a lot of African Americans, especially the guys.
  Martini:	The guy. Oh, yeah?
  Rao:	Yes.
  [00:39:30] Martini:	They were friendly?
  Rao: [00:40:00]	Yes. For one thing, everybody just thought it was so exotic that I was from India. A girl from India. They used to say things like, "Well, I've never had an Indian girl." When I started getting more confident, I said, "you never will." African Americans were probably a group that I had never had any contact with until I got in the military. Basic training, I had two sisters that were really good friends of mine. They were African American. Or was it in... Yeah, I think it was basic training. There were people all around me. There were many African Americans, and we were all living in close quarters, training together and stuff. It was an interesting experience. I don't think I really thought about, culturally, what anybody was. They were just different from me, and they happened to be African American.
  [00:40:30] [00:41:00] [00:41:30]	I think I started learning things just from being around people. Maybe I see certain things that are more done by African Americans versus a Latino or something. I didn't really make too many differentiations between anybody. All I know is that they were different from me, and they were quite interesting because they were different. Also, because there was nobody like me, nobody from my background, I didn't have anybody to turn to as far as anything relating to if I get upset, or I'm getting depressed or anything like that. I mean, if I am missing India or anything like that. There was nobody to talk to about that. I remember in 1984 in India, there was the Prime Minister at the time, Indira Gandhi, got assassinated. They were assassinated by her Sikh bodyguard. I started getting some letters from back home, because my dad and my stepmother were still living in New Delhi where I grew up.
  [00:42:00]	There was a Sikh taxi stand behind our house, and there was an older Sikh man. The Sikh men had really long hair, and they'd put it up into a turban. I remember that older man, he was so nice to everybody. Such a great guy. I had heard, and I don't know how I heard exactly, but I heard that they came into our middle-class neighborhood. I mean, we were kind of middle-class, upper middle-class neighborhood, which is usually kind of protected from these kinds of events of violence. They came into our neighborhood, and they were basically... People came into the neighborhood and started just burning people alive. I had heard that he was burned alive, that older man.
  Martini:	Oh no. Oh no.
  [00:42:30] Rao:	Yeah, It was the first time where I felt, really personally felt, something. Otherwise, it's just something happening there. But the fact it was happening in my neighborhood, behind my house, where my parents were, it really hit home.
  	I felt so isolated, because I felt like there was nobody, I could really talk to about it. If I talked to anybody, for them it was just like, "Well, why are you talking about another country? You're here, you're in the U S Army." You just felt like you had no one to turn to.
  [00:43:00] Martini:	Was there a chaplain or anything? That was-
  Rao:	Yeah, and I think I did talk to the chaplain. I think I may have talked to the chaplain. I kind of kept it to myself, because I felt like I didn't really get, that maybe... well, it's not that I didn't get the support that I wanted. I think maybe I just didn't feel comfortable enough to even talk about another country being in the U S Army.
  Martini:	That must have felt very isolated.
  [00:43:30] Rao: [00:44:00]	Yeah. I mean, I had these two gay friends. That was also my first time being around gay guys and finding out that, wow, we really hit it off, man. They were these two young white guys and very cute. One was super handsome, blonde and blue eyes. The other one had glasses, a little more dorky looking but both of them, my buddies. They used to scheme about how they were going to get thrown out of the military. That they're going to get caught while they're doing something, so they can get kicked out. They were always scheming how they were going to get out or maybe get caught smoking something and all that. I was like, "oh come on you guys-"
  Martini:	Sounds like Corporal Clinger from MASH or something.
  Rao: [00:44:30]	... "All right, you guys." I think maybe with them, I did share something about my emotions and stuff. For a lot of these people, they came from backgrounds where they really didn't know much about anything. Just like me. We just happened to take this opportunity. Main thing we had in common was that we were trying to escape from wherever we were coming from. We economically or studies wise, needed some kind of direction. The military gave us that direction. When I did finally talk to somebody, it was my major. Major Stephen, Stephen Hyde, and we had that feeling that I could talk. So, I did talk to him. I remember that he eventually worked it out so that I would get time off, and I went back to India.
  Martini:	Wow. That's great. Yeah.
  [00:45:00] Rao: [00:45:30]	Yeah. It helped me a lot. I went to him, and I said, " I'm not the type to not follow rules." I grew up in a Catholic school too, in India. For me, I will do what anybody tells me. Wearing a uniform is no big deal. I kind of like the fact that you don't have to think about what you're going to wear. You don't have to be rich or poor. We all kind of were the same, except I had a more faded uniform maybe, when I was in Catholic school. I kind of scared myself with the thoughts that I was getting in my head. Those guys used to talk about how they were going to get kicked out and we talked about what AWOL was, what going AWOL meant. I started having those kind of ideas without really understanding, really. And not really thinking so much, much about the repercussions, because all I was trying to do, was trying to find a way that I could maybe go back and be with my parents.
  Martini:	You needed some family home fix.
  [00:46:00] Rao:	I needed to go back to know that they were okay. It was because of that violence that I was just like, no. Hearing about this guy, I was like, oh, I got to go see them. So, I talked to my major about it. I'm really glad that I had the nerve to. If it had been a regular military unit, not the kind of this unique sphere that I was in, I don't know if I could have done that.
  [00:46:30] Martini:	That's going up there in the chain of command. He was welcoming and understanding, these are important.
  Rao: [00:47:00]	Oh yeah. I think he really appreciated the fact that I was open enough to even let this all out. The fact that he even understood, because I don't think he knew anything about India, but he did understand the feeling of you being afraid for your family. That this country is just so far away. That, how does it feel to be that far away? Everybody in the military was far away from their families, and other states and stuff. Even that distance was a lot, for a lot of people. I'm sure he could relate to that. I really appreciate it, because I don't know where I would've been.
  Martini:	How long did you get to go back to India for?
  Rao:	I'm trying to remember. I thought that it was pretty long. I think he let me go for like a month or something.
  Martini:	Oh, that's good.
  [00:47:30] Rao:	It was quite a while, because it's so far away. As far as the part in India when I was there, I really don't remember anything. It's really weird, but I don't. All I know is that they were okay. Don't remember.
  Martini:	You were better when you got back?
  Rao:	Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I think it was soon after that that I had the opportunity to go ahead and take the Defense Language Institute, the test that we had to take to see if we were capable or not. I passed it, but I barely passed it that second time too.
  [00:48:00] Martini:	Go back a second. When you were talking about, you met all kinds of different people from different races. How did people react to you? I mean, aside from being different and guys were attracted, did you get any racist stuff?
  [00:48:30] Rao: [00:49:00]	I don't really remember feeling like I was mistreated in that way at all. I don't even remember that at all. I just remember that we were kind of all in this together. I don't think they really knew what to do with me, because who, where's India anyway? People would be like, "Where are you from?" And I'm like, "I'm from India." I don't think people really knew where that was. When I'd say Indian, they'd say, "well, what tribe do you come from?" I'm like, "No, I'm, I'm not, what? No, I'm from the human tribe." People just didn't know.
  [00:49:30]	I didn't really have a lot of Indians around me when I was growing up in the U S. I think that in a way, it was the best thing that happened to me, because I was able to get to know many people. Before I even got in the military, I was around all kinds of people from all kinds of cultures. It just prepared me for the military, I think. There was nobody, I mean, there were a few Indian families. I think there was one that I knew, and that's it, when I was growing up in San Jose. That time it was all fields of fruit, vegetables where I lived in the Almaden Valley. They call it the valley of hearts Delight. I mean, I had to basically make do with whatever food we could find. For me, the kind of saving grace was that it was Mexican Chinese food. When I came, that was the closest to my kind of food.
  Martini:	Yeah, the spices.
  Rao:	Yeah. Then we also had a Korean family, and they saved me with their food too.
  [00:50:00] Martini:	And this explains why the kimchi was okay.
  Rao:	Oh yeah.
  Martini:	What did you guys do for recreation when you got your time off? Did you hang around Fort Scott, or did you go-
  Rao: [00:50:30]	There was a baseball diamond in front of our... practically right in front. We used to go there to support our team. I remember that they taught me this. My first cheer, for the baseball team. It went like this, "Chew tobacco, chew tobacco, spit, spit, spit. Chew tobacco, chew tobacco, spit, spit, spit. If you ain't M-I, you ain't it." M-I, meaning military intelligence.
  Martini:	This may be the only place that is preserved for posterity.
  Rao:	It was all new for me. It was all kind of fun. I don't remember doing anything besides that really, except aerobics. I used to go down to the gym, to the Y down there. We used to be the post gym, and I used to like going to the aerobics classes.
  [00:51:00] Martini:	The bowling center was still operating, wasn't it?
  Rao:	Oh, yes. We did go bowling. We did. We did. We went bowling. We went to the movies down on the main post. I remember the movies. I think they were like one dollar, less than two dollars, something like that. Bowling alley, yeah. I used to bowl before I joined the military, so it was kind of something that I had had contact with. I did go to the bowling alley. We used to get not very good food over there, but at that time we thought it was great.
  [00:51:30] [00:52:00]	Lots of the food in the military that I had in basic, and in A I T, and just even in Fort Scott, was all food that was all different from what I grew up with. I grew up with mostly Indian food and Chinese food and other kinds of foods. A lot of the food was from the South, and I had not had any contact with that. So, some of the greens that I had, the grits, the biscuits and gravy, and the pies. I had never had those things. In fact, the only time in my life that I gained that much weight was when I was in the military. That was at the beginning when I was in basic training. I ate everything in sight, because I just had never had it.
  Martini:	Where'd you take your meals when you were at Fort Scott?
  Rao: [00:52:30]	I vaguely remember there being somewhere where we had, in that, one of those... I thought it was in one of those buildings right there on Fort Scott, that had a kitchen. The K P. What do you call it? The kitchen for us to eat? The dining hall. Yeah. It was somewhere in one of those buildings, because I didn't go very far to go to food. It was right there somewhere.
  Martini:	Somewhere in the main parade ground. Yeah.
  Rao:	Yeah. Well, I mean on Fort Scott.
  Martini:	At Fort Scott, yeah.
  Rao:	And I went to school just across the green over there.
  Martini:	Yeah. Explain about going to school.
  Rao: [00:53:00] [00:53:30]	Part of the reason I wanted to join was my, well, not part of it, it was probably the main reason I joined, was with the idea of going study. I didn't think just about studying when I got out, because I knew I was going to get my benefits. It was the VEAP program, the Veterans Educational Assistance Program. I knew that I would get that when I got out. Only if I studied would I get it. That was kind of a motivation that, okay, if I get that when I get out, I really will study. Because, if I don't study, I'm not getting it. Then I would've spent all this time in the military. If I don't use the money, then that would've been kind of a waste for being there, because that's the main reason I went. While I'm at it, let me go study, also take classes while I'm in the military. When I was at Fort Scott, that's what I remember doing mostly with the time off I had, besides hanging out with the guys, would be to go study.
  	There was University of Maryland, was one of the programs that was there. Then there was Chicago based, I don't know if it was like a junior college or what it was. I can't remember exactly. I think there was also University of some Phoenix, also-
  [00:54:00] Martini:	That'd be a big one.
  Rao:	...Also was there. I think I took a psych class over there. I think maybe I took an English class, something like that.
  Martini:	So, these were all accredited courses you were taking.
  Rao:	Yeah, which I used later when I got out. I remember studying in Fort Scott, but when I moved overseas after that, I didn't study. I started studying over there, and it was just too much. Yeah. So, I gave up.
  [00:54:30] Martini:	Do you have any memory of, which of the many buildings over here, where you had your classes?
  Rao:	Yeah, it was opposite. It was opposite of where my 12-0-5 building was. I think it was right around here. I think it was 12-16 or 12-
  Martini:	12-18.
  Rao:	Yeah, I think it was right here. I think the jail was, what? Here, somewhere?
  Martini:	Yes. You're pointing to the old guard house. The jail building.
  Rao:	Yeah. I believe I used to walk across this way. I think this was it.
  [00:55:00] Martini:	Yeah, it is. It's almost directly across from your barracks.
  Rao:	Yeah. There it says education center. Yeah, that's where I was.
  Martini:	Oh, excellent! What we're using for reference here is a 1990 map of Fort Scott with the buildings numbered and [inaudible 00:55:14] field. Your memory corresponds exactly to what we're seeing out there.
  Rao:	Boy, I'm surprised.
  Martini:	Another thing that I dug up was that you were in 12-0-5. The ones that flanked you, 12-0-4 and 12-0-6 were men's barracks. Okay?
  [00:55:30] Rao:	Yes. I remember that.
  Martini:	And was there fraternization?
  Rao:	Fraternization? So, if you're talking about officers with the non-commissioned officers-
  Martini:	No-
  Rao:	...No. But if you're talking about us hanging out with the guys, oh yeah.
  Martini:	Oh yeah?
  Rao: [00:56:00]	This was like major introduction into hanging out with the guys. Well, the military period was my introduction to hanging out with the guys. I mean, in India, I had a boyfriend, but it was all very innocent compared to what I was introduced to.
  	Section 2 of 4      [00:28:00 - 00:56:04]
  	Section 3 of 4      [00:56:00 - 01:24:04] (NOTE: speaker names may be different in each section)
  Rao:	... to what I was introduced to. And I remember that Battery Godfrey that you were talking about.
  Martini:	Yes.
  Rao:	Yeah. I was taken over there by a guy one time and at night. That mill, that MI building over there?
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Rao: [00:56:30] [00:57:00]	That's by that, it was all dark. Nothing was over there. So we would go and park our car, and then we'd go walk up into that bunker, and we would be sitting out there, hanging out, and talking, and first time getting a little hot, hot and heavy yeah. But I'd have to say that in the military, what I learned is that, see, because I, okay, so this is a little embarrassing, but when I grew up in India thinking that I would be with an Indian guy eventually, and because, but that was just my scope of what I had around me, and I always thought that I would be with an Indian guy because I went to school in India and all that stuff.
  [00:57:30]	Well, then my mind started changing a little bit when I was in the military, and I said, "Well, if a person treats me good, and if I really care for this person, I have to really care for this person because I don't believe in sex before marriage and all that kind of stuff." But then after being around some of the women around there, I said, "Well, if I really care for that person, then okay, maybe." But I resisted for a long time. And actually, even when I got out of the military, I had never gone all the way amazing because when I went in, everybody's like, "You're going to be barefoot and pregnant by the time you get out." And I was like, "Uh-uh, ain't happening to me. You just watch." Because I had a goal. I really did have that goal that I was going to get out, and I was going to go to school.
  [00:58:00] [00:58:30]	And I also, I think partially being, growing up in India, that I had some very strong things that, I mean ideas that I wanted to stick to, but I was open enough in my head at least. I opened up to the idea of going kind of all the way, but I never did because I had to care for somebody. I had to really care for someone. And I remember that this one guy, very first person that I went out with, I don't remember how exactly it happened, but when I arrived at the airport in San Francisco, he was there, and I kind of talked, I bantered with him, I talked with him or something. He was there, and I guess maybe I was in uniform. He was in uniform, and he saw me or something. We were chatting. And when I got to the base, there he was again.
  	And so now I was talking to Mr. Antonio Scoggins. That was his name.
  Martini:	What was that?
  Rao:	Antonio Scoggins was his name.
  Martini:	Antonio Scoggins.
  [00:59:00] Rao:	And I remember because he was the first guy that I went with, and he was from Philadelphia someplace, but he was the one that showed me that bunker over there. And he had a car. So that makes a difference too, because nobody else had a car. We didn't have cars.
  Martini:	Yeah. Yeah.
  Rao:	And I didn't really realize that he lived up in the married, those apartments up by the golf course?
  Martini:	Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
  [00:59:30] Rao:	I think that was those non-commissioned officers that were married stayed there.
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Rao:	Well, I didn't put two and two together. I didn't know that he lived there at the beginning. And then I think one time we went over there maybe once or twice, and I didn't really think about it. I just thought because he was a sergeant, that he had these quarters. I had no idea. What a shyster.
  Martini:	He was married.
  Rao:	Yes.
  Martini:	Oh, geez.
  [01:00:00] Rao:	I don't think she lived over there though. I don't think she was there, which I think was many times. Many of the folks were probably married, but they didn't have their families with them over there.
  Martini:	If you're married, you rate getting quarters like that.
  Rao: [01:00:30]	Yeah, yeah but he was the sweetest guy. Very nice. And he showed me lots of stuff that I had never experienced before, but he had asked me even to marry him. Now I'm trying to think how well that worked on me. But anyway, I didn't know he was married. And I'm like, "Nah."
  Martini:	Nah.
  Rao:	I was just going through things, enjoying life, and I didn't have any intentions of getting tied down to anybody. It was so far from my realm of possibility. And I was like, "Nah." And eventually we didn't stay together because I was like, "Yeah, this is too serious for me." But I mean, obviously he left a mark in my head.
  Martini:	Oh, yeah.
  [01:01:00] Rao:	And I also remember that behind that, those bunkers, that Godfrey, what was it called?
  Martini:	Battery ...
  Rao:	Godfrey.
  Martini:	... Godfrey.
  Rao:	There was a way to go left, and we would go down the hill, and there would be the nude beach down there.
  Martini:	Yes.
  Rao: [01:01:30]	Right? And I remember that I went through all this poison oak, and I didn't know what poison oak was. And I remember that I wore, I had shorts on, T-shirt, short sleeves. You walked straight through the poison oak all the way down the hill. And oh boy, that was the first time I found out about poison oak. But also, I was like, "Oh my God." I saw guys without clothes on, and I had never seen that before.
  Martini:	And to think that it happened with the Presidio.
  Rao:	Oh yeah, it was a trip.
  Martini:	So, you're talking about, it's a, they now call Martin's Beach.
  [01:02:00] Rao:	Oh, Martin's Beach, okay. Yeah.
  Martini:	Yeah, and that's exactly what it's used for today too.
  Rao:	Yeah, it was very cold. I mean, I was like, "What's so nice about this? Going in the water? Oh my God."
  Martini:	How dangerous.
  Rao:	You would just freeze to death. So that's what I would do. I would go in the water, because I mean, with this mentality of not living near the water, the idea is that you have to go in the water no matter how cold it is, right?
  Martini:	Mm-hmm.
  Rao: [01:02:30]	So, I'd go in there, and I'd go full, complete all the way into the water, and a minute later, I'd be back out. But you'd freeze to death in there. You wouldn't feel your bodies. That's how you're able to stay there for a minute. And then I just come right back out, and yeah.
  Martini:	Yeah, this isn't San Diego. Yeah.
  Rao: [01:03:00]	Yeah, oh, yeah. And there used to be a girl that I knew. Her name was Deborah. She was kind of some kind of a sergeant, and I think she stayed off post somewhere. I don't really know. See, because when they weren't with us in the barracks, I don't know. I don't know where they lived, but she was the one that took me down there another time. And she would go in the buff, but I couldn't go in the buff, no. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. But it was very uncomfortable for me, but I was trying to deal with it. And since I have bad eyesight, I just take the glasses off, and I didn't see anybody.
  	As it is, it was hard enough going and having a bath inside the basic, and then AIT, and then even later, because we were in these bathrooms with no privacy-
  Martini:	Showers.
  [01:03:30] Rao:	... showers, yeah. So, you're just having a shower in front of everybody. And I mean, growing up in India, I wouldn't even change in front of my mom, or my sister, or anybody. When we're getting older, we wouldn't change in front of each other. So that was just a very foreign concept for me when I came to the United States. And even high school, I'd kind of skirt around the changing room until everybody was gone, and then I would quickly change because I just wasn't used to it.
  [01:04:00]	Then when I get to the military, it's like, "Whoa, now you don't have a choice." And I was like, "Thank God my eyes are so bad because that way if I don't see them, they don't see me." And don't ... Only look from the neck up. Don't look down. And then, I mean, later on, I was based in Germany, and there there'd be nude beaches all the time. So, it's probably a good thing I went through that whole process.
  Martini:	Broke yourself in here yeah.
  Rao: [01:04:30]	Yeah, but I also, in between, I was sent to the [inaudible 01:04:21] for primary leadership course for a month, and I met this Puerto Rican guy over there. He also was an experience. So basically, for me, the military was a lot of it was that kind of stuff.
  Martini:	This is good, Anita. So, I'm glad to hear you made friends.
  Rao:	I made lots of friends. I mean, then later I also met my first Pacific Islander here. I think he was from Samoa. His name was Julio. But anyway, yeah.
  Martini:	So, you, you're at Fort Scott, and you applied, and you got into the Defense Language Institute?
  Rao:	I did.
  [01:05:00] Martini:	But we're not talking about the big one down in Monterey.
  Rao:	No. We were on top of the Douglas, General Douglas MacArthur Tunnel. So if you were to go down past Baker's Beach, and there's that, there used to be a big field where we used to play soccer. If you just walk up, that hill would be the back of the public health facility at. It was a hospital, basically.
  Martini:	It was the old hospital. Yeah.
  Rao:	Yeah. Yeah. And our room was like a hospital. It was exactly a hospital room where we lived, in double bucks. Yeah.
  [01:05:30] Martini:	Yeah. So, you actually moved into the?
  Rao:	Yes.
  Martini:	You lived in the hospital?
  Rao: [01:06:00]	Yeah, it was on 14th and Lake Street, 14th Avenue and Lake Street, and it was beautiful. But this place was different from being in Fort Scott, even though it was basically the same area except that our entrance was in the civilian world, whereas the other one was the military world. And I mean, it's ironic that the Golden Gate Bridge was right there at Fort Scott, but I don't really even remember much about the bridge. Because maybe we, I mean, we walked across and yeah, we did. I remember the sergeant said that he got promoted up on one of the towers, and I remember him telling me that. So yeah, I remember the bridge, but it's not like it really stuck in my head. More than anything, it was Fort Point where we started our military.
  Martini:	The old brick fort. Yeah.
  Rao:	Yeah.
  Martini:	It was where you started your ...
  Rao:	Point, and then where we started our what do you call it PE test.
  Martini:	PE test.
  Rao:	Yeah.
  Martini:	Yeah.
  [01:06:30] Rao: [01:07:00]	But that area, it was the first time that we were ... We used to have contact with the civilian world from Fort Scott, but we used to walk all the way down through the main post out the Lombard Gate, and we would walk over to North Beach. I mean that there was a disco over there. I remember it was called The Palladium. And we had no money. I mean, I don't know why we had no money, because we were earning money. I don't know what we did with our own money, but we were always broke. And I remember walking all the way over there, and I think we were allowed to go there if we were under 21 or something. I can't remember exactly. And then we used to walk all the way back at late at night. There's no way to get back home.
  	No. Definitely didn't have money for a taxi or anything like that. So yeah, we would walk all the way back. But I do remember mainly that we would party on post, because on post, it was you could be 18 years old, and you could drink at the time.
  Martini:	Right.
  [01:07:30] Rao:	I remember that. Because it was like, "Well, what do you do when you want to spend your money? You want to have a good time"? Well, you just go down to the NCO club, which was down on the main post. So we were at the NCO club a lot. A lot.
  Martini:	Is that he building that's still there now? The National Cemetery?
  Rao:	Yep, exactly.
  Martini:	We've [inaudible 01:07:45] the Golden Gate Club today.
  Rao:	Yeah, exactly. That was our major hangout.
  Martini:	So, you didn't have to be an NCO to go to the NCO club?
  Rao:	No.
  Martini:	There wasn't. Okay.
  Rao: [01:08:00] [01:08:30]	No. No. And I learned about every kind of liquor that exists on this earth over there. I remember I had a White Russian and a Black Russian, and I don't remember what was in it, but I had those, and I had on my, I think it was on my 20th birthday, we went over there to the NCO club, and we had so many gins that until today, I'm almost 56, I cannot stand the smell of gin. I had so much, and I was so drunk. I passed out, and I have no idea even to today how I got back up there to Fort Scott. But yes, I remember the NCO club.
  Martini:	You talked about the civilian world. When you went off post, did you wear civilian clothes, or did you wear your uniform? Were you required to wear?
  Rao:	No civilian clothes.
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Rao:	I remember when we were ... So, I want to back up a second because-
  Martini:	Yeah. Yeah.
  Rao: [01:09:00] [01:09:30]	... when I was at Fort Scott, when we went to the civilian world, it was at Palladium in North Beach. And then the other place was Fisherman's Wharf. It was always Fisherman's Wharf. And it was very exciting for us because we had never had any kind of experience like that ever before. Most of us from little towns and me, I grew up in San Jose. I hardly went anywhere when I was in San Jose. So it was very exciting to be at Fisherman's Wharf and especially Ghiradelli Square area, because that was closer to the post. And I remember there was this African American guy that, I think he's still there today. He sings, and he makes poetry, and he talks, and he says a little in every kind of language I can think. He had that hat on. He's still there. I've seen him recently.
  Martini:	He's a street performer? Yeah.
  Rao:	Yeah, and he can speak in all these different languages. I mean, last time I probably saw him was maybe a few years ago, but he was still there, same guy, yeah. So that was my only memory of somebody that's still there in my civilian world that started out from my experience in the Presidio at that time, which is pretty amazing.
  Martini:	Yeah.
  [01:10:00] Rao:	But besides that, we didn't go anywhere really in the civilian world. But when I was at the Defense Language Institute, I mean, the exit is right there on 14th Avenue.
  Martini:	Right.
  Rao: [01:10:30]	So, if you go down, everywhere around there was all kinds of things. There was the Alexandria Theater, if you can go to the movies over there. You could go down to the left, and we would go over to Clement Street a lot because I love Asian food. I'm Asian, so half Asian. So of course, I was looking for my rice and stuff. So, it was very exciting going on Clement Street, and I found Indonesian restaurants over there. I found just all kinds of food that I just loved. So I was in my element, and I hardly ever went anywhere else besides that. Marina, I used to go before. Oh, yes, sorry. When I was at Fort Scott, I went to the marina district, and on Union Street, there used to be an Indian restaurant called Pasant. And that's where I used to get my Indian food.
  [01:11:00]	And ironically, it was South Indian food, which when I came back from the military, it was years before San Francisco ever had any South Indian food because Pasant went out of business in San Francisco. And so, I used to have to go to Berkeley to find my food. Yeah.
  Martini:	This is great. So, what were, San Francisco had kind of a reputation during the Vietnam War not being friendly to the military. What was it? What was it like in the eighties?
  Rao: [01:11:30] [01:12:00]	So first of all, I don't remember there ever bringing any control going out the Lombard Gate. And I don't remember that we had a closed base. I believe I remember it being open yeah, and which was not how it was when I went to Germany or any other base that I visited. So that was kind of unusual, but I don't remember really. I may have had contact with civilians, like the civilians that worked for the military, but really contact with civilian people. Hardly at all. And I mean, it's not because there was any reason why I shouldn't have. It's just that my world was this world that I had around me. And I mean, I'm talking about even smaller than even the military base. The Fort Scott was my world. And even that was even just my world with the people I used to talk to or hang out with.
  [01:12:30]	When you're on Fort Scott, those buildings are one after another. And when you're walking down towards the baseball diamond over there, I mean, you're walking across all these people sitting out on the steps because that's where we would hang out. We would sit in front of the building on the steps, and you'd be walking by, and guys are saying all kinds of stuff to you, and you'd learn how to say stuff back to them, or you're strutting your stuff or whatever when you're going by. And that was kind of the walk that we would do. That was, that's where you would preen your feathers or-
  Martini:	Okay.
  Rao:	It's a walk.
  Martini: [01:13:00]	It's interesting because here at the Park Archive, we have all these photos of life on post, and it seems like traditional, the soldiers hung out on the front steps of their barracks.
  Rao:	Well, where else were we going to go?
  Martini:	I don't know.
  Rao:	I mean, if you're not drinking the NCO club, well, you had to hang out somewhere.
  Martini:	Some place.
  Rao: [01:13:30]	And I mean, if the girls are not going to just hang out with the girls, and the guys aren't just going to hang out with the guys. We're going to be just be somewhere where we can see each other. And the log cabin we had a couple of times, we had some events over there. I remember for our, what do you call it? For the USA [inaudible 01:13:29], we had a couple of events in the log cabin over there. That I do remember because it was kind of unusual, different.
  Martini:	Was the log cabin at that time, was it special events, or a hall, or was it just a regular, like the NCO club? What was it?
  Rao:	No, it wasn't like the NCO club at all. It was just a big cabin. I don't remember it being anything fancy or anything. It used to have like-
  Martini:	So, you couldn't just drop by, and get drinks, or play pinball, or any of those things?
  Rao:	No, no, no, no. It was like an event space kind of thing. Yeah.
  Martini:	Yeah. That's what it is now.
  [01:14:00] Rao:	Oh, okay. Yes. That's what even, I mean, and when you're talking about the chapel, I think when I went to the chapel, I may have gone to the base chapel down on the main on sixth army headquarter side. I may have gone to a chapel, the chapel down there. But the one up by Fort Scott, I don't remember ever going to it. Oh, okay. Yeah, because I don't remember that.
  Martini:	Yeah, the chapel was one closest to the NCO club. Kind of looks like an old mission type of thing.
  Rao:	Yeah.
  [01:14:30] Martini:	That was, I think Protestant, and Little St. Mary's next to the officer's club was Catholic.
  Rao:	Oh.
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Rao:	Well, honestly, I don't even remember so much going there because we had other things to distract us.
  Martini:	So, you hear stories about, okay, in the military today about sexual harassment in the military. Do you catch any of that?
  [01:15:00] Rao: [01:15:30]	Well, there was this, he was an officer. I think he was a colonel actually. He was kind of a small guy, kind of skinny, bald. I don't remember what he was exactly. He had little darker skin like me. But you know how sometimes you feel like a person who is small of stature has to prove that, feel like they have to prove themselves? Well, this guy was probably the only one that I really felt a little intimidated by because of who he was besides the post commander, of course. Lieutenant Colonel Atchison was Lieutenant Colonel Atchison.
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Rao:	Yeah. But yeah, this particular guy, I remember he used to have his office. I think it was in the front on the second floor facing the parade ground and ...
  Martini:	In the headquarters building?
  Rao: [01:16:00] [01:16:30]	Yeah. In the headquarters building, that was our office. And I was on the other side, so I was towards the front, but when you'd come up the stairs, I'd be to the left. He would be to the right. And I just remember him just saying things, but I don't remember exactly what it was, but I felt very uncomfortable and kind of dirty. But because he was a officer, you just take it, and you've had things said to you. And even when you're ... Guys say kind of stuff to you all the time with the little sexual innuendos that aren't always very pleasant. And in the military, I definitely went through that many times, but it was okay. I could kind of deal with it.
  Martini:	With enlisted guys.
  Rao: [01:17:00]	Yeah, but this felt very strange. And because he was also an officer, so what are you going to do? I mean, I was just like a specialist. I can't remember if I was a Spec 3, I think at the time, and I was a PFC. And yeah, I just felt I'd always try to get out of the office, just try to get away from there. And then one day, I came into the office, and oh, he was known also for kind of getting drunk. But one day, I came into the office, and I was coming up the stairs. And as I'm up coming up, he's being carried out on a stretcher. So ...
  Martini:	What happened?
  Rao: [01:17:30]	He came totally drunk to work. And all I know is that I was so relieved. I never saw him again. That was the end of that.
  Martini:	Probably transferred or something. So, he never tried anything? He was just sleazy, making?
  Rao:	He was yeah. He was out of there. One thing I will tell you is about Letterman Hospital. Yeah.
  Martini:	Yeah. You had to go to Letterman.
  Rao: [01:18:00]	So, when I first came in the military, originally, I came from India, so I didn't really ... In India at the time, the idea was that if you are a woman, there's no need for you to go have a pap smear unless you're married, and you've had sex. Right?
  Martini:	Right.
  Rao: [01:18:30]	So I went to Letterman, and they gave me what, as far as I can remember, my first pap smear, and the instrument that they used was too big. And because he didn't ask me any questions, I was in dire pain, and I was screaming. And I remember him saying something like, "Well, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you were a virgin." And I'm like, for me, I was just embarrassed, period. Because anything like that was not something I'd ever been through that anybody was touching your private parts, or looking at you, or anything. We didn't even change in front of each other practically.
  [01:19:00]	Or if somebody changed in front of me, I'd turned the other way because I just not used to that. But I was so uncomfortable because I never really been through it, and I didn't know what to expect. So, I didn't know what was normal and what was not normal. So, it makes me upset to think that this person would just assume something like that, but maybe it's a reflection of everybody else. But I mean, still, it wasn't cool yet. So, I remember that. So, when I go by Letterman, that's what comes to my head.
  Martini:	I'm sorry. I shouldn't laugh. But that-
  Rao:	I know. But it is funny.
  Martini:	Yeah.
  [01:19:30] Rao: [01:20:00]	'Cause I'm like, "Oh." And then the other thing is that I have this vague memory of reading while I was in the military base over there, that there was this doctor that was doing pap smears that was actually touch, feeling, touching up people. And I think it was him. I'm not sure, I can't remember the details, but even if he was touching or feeling up, I wouldn't know because I had never been, had never gone through a pap smear before. How did I know what was normal and not normal? And in a way, I think that ignorance has saved me from feeling something that would maybe scar me today is because I didn't even know what to expect. All I know is that I was really uncomfortable, period. Because I was not used to going through something like that, right. So, who knows? I don't know.
  [01:20:30] Martini:	Listening to your talk, it's amazing how you were experiencing everything for the first time from where you came from, and you got such a positive attitude.
  Rao:	Yeah, I mean I think-
  Martini:	There was some weird things, but ...
  Rao:	I think that the military in a way was sometimes in life you have certain, maybe you, you're reborn in life a few times.
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Rao: [01:21:00]	And definitely the military was that for me. I mean, I had an education like I've never had an education before, and these are the kind of things that I think actually maybe make me what I am today, is that I had all this exposure, and I didn't have anybody to turn to. And so, I had to figure things out as I went along with whoever was around me and whatever was around me. And I think that was great that I didn't really have say an Indian person to turn to, or my family to necessarily turn to. I was kind of on my own. This was the first time I was kind of on my own.
  [01:21:30] Martini:	You're a very gregarious person, and being a tour guide and airline attendant, you have to be.
  Rao:	Yeah.
  Martini:	Were you that way when you got here? Or did you learn to become open and gregarious?
  Rao: [01:22:00] [01:22:30]	So, my dad was a very, very fun-loving, talkative person. He talked to every Tom, Dick and Harry. So, I think I got it partially from him. And I have a very talkative family. My brother and sister do very well. My other brother's very quiet, but that's probably because we never let him talk. But yeah, we were talkative as it is, but learning how to talk the American way was definitely not anything I knew. And when I first came to the United States, I was very quiet because I just felt like, I mean, it was different. Everything was different. Even though I spoke English when I came, because we grew up speaking English, but the accent was different. The way we would dress is different. Everything was different. And I felt so kind of alienated from everybody, so very quiet. And the only people we'd hang out with was with each other.
  [01:23:00]	My brother, my brother that's just one year above me who also just retired from the military about a year ago, he and I were the ones that hung out together. And the other place I went, was church because my brother at the time, eldest brother, so two and a half years above me, he used to go to church, and he's the one that kind of introduced us to people at the church. So those were the people I knew. And the only other people I knew were all immigrants that were like me, kind of lost. The main ones I remember I actually Vietnamese, and I remember them. I mean, this was 1977 when we first came. So that was right after Vietnam, and yeah, many Vietnamese, and this was in San Jose.
  [01:23:30]	There's a big Vietnamese community there even today.
  Martini:	Today.
  Rao: [01:24:00]	But they were the ones that I remember the most, either the church or these folks. And yeah. And that all also was such an experience because I was used to being the cool kid in the Indian school. I knew everybody. Then I went to the American school in India, and my sister became the cool kid. And I was not the cool kid because I was a little bit more Indian and maybe I wasn't into sports. And I noticed that was the main thing I remember was moving from the Indian school to-
  	Section 3 of 4      [00:56:00 - 01:24:04]
  	Section 4 of 4      [01:24:00 - 01:51:25] (NOTE: speaker names may be different in each section)
  Rao:	And I noticed, that was the main thing I remember was moving from the Indian school to the American school. Then instead of having to be good in studies, I had to be good in sports.
  Martini:	Sports.
  Rao:	And now all of a sudden it was flipped around that my sister was shining because she had this opportunity to try sports and she was really good at it and I wasn't. Anyway, I'm rambling now.
  Martini: [01:24:30]	So, at the Defense Language Institute school there at the old public health service, is that where you picked up all the additional languages?
  Rao:	No, only German.
  Martini:	Only German.
  Rao: [01:25:00]	Only German. But I have to say that, I mean, even today, that is my dream come true. Somebody paying me to study a language and that's it. Wow. I would do that any day if anybody offered me that opportunity again. And it was about eight months long. So, it was single soldiers that were studying Korean, Spanish, and German. And Korean, I believe was a longer program than the German program. And I think Spanish was a shorter program than the German program.
  	And we did everything right there in that building. We ate in that building and we went to school in that building. We lived in the building, everything was there. Then we would go behind and we walked down the hill to that field back there, and we would play soccer and things like that. And we had to play soccer in German.
  [01:25:30]	We had to learn [German 01:25:31], all these terms in German. And that's where I caught my foot in the gopher hole, and I broke my foot. Then I walked back up the hill with that broken foot, not realizing that I'd broken it. But when I used to live up on the hill over there, I bought a bicycle. And that's when I started biking around, bicycling around in the city itself, because I had this bicycle. But of course, when I broke my foot, I couldn't.
  [01:26:00]	But anyway, what I do remember is that the program was the best. I mean, even today I studied several languages after that, the best language program I had ever been to. And I think the secret was, first of all, that day one, you speak in the language, they don't let you speak in English at all, and they speak to you in that language.
  Martini:	Total immersion.
  Rao: [01:26:30]	Yeah. I mean, day one, meaning when you started studying the language, because what they do before that, at least what I remember is that first they spend, I thought it was around two weeks or something, that they would spend making you understand your own language. So, we made sure that we understood our own grammar and parts of speech and all that in English. And once we got those concepts really in our head, because when you're just speaking your own language, you're not thinking that "Oh, that's a noun, that's a verb, that's a this, that's a that." No, you're not thinking about that.
  [01:27:00]	So, when we understood that, then when they jumped to pure German, then you knew what they were talking about. And I remember feeling kind of confused at the beginning, but at the end, man, whoa, we could speak. I knew the books that we had; it was like these little books that we used to have to do exercises in. So you'd have talking, speaking, and then you would also have these books that homework that we used to do and the homework, they were all little books like that. And it was amazing.
  [01:27:30]	And I remember Habass, he was a big, heavy American gentleman, really nice, like big Santa Claus type. And we loved him. We loved Habass. And eventually he ended up, actually, he had to leave. And I don't remember why he had to leave, but we kind of all fought to... because we wanted him to stay. And when I became a civilian, I actually met him again. He was making some kind of artwork and I used to chat with him.
  Martini:	So, because you picked up German and then they transferred you to Germany? Because of the expertise?
  [01:28:00] Rao: [01:28:30]	Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Because I was a 71 Lima German language qualified, which means that I had the secretarial skills as well as the language. And I mean, we used to learn beer drinking songs, wine drinking songs, Christmas carols and all that. And I thought, "Man, these people are crazy. Why are we learning all this stuff?" So we learned military terminology also in German, like panzer means a tank, or do you want me to sing one of the German songs that we...
  Martini:	Please.
  Rao: [01:29:00]	Goes like this. (Singing). When you drink wine, that's what you sang. (Singing). So I sang all these Christmas songs when I went to Germany and I used to sing all these wine and beer drinking songs when I went to Germany. And oh, they thought I was the coolest thing. So now I understand why I learned it. But then I thought, "God, what is wrong with these people?"
  Martini:	Before we leave the Presidio, we'll talk briefly about any of your military years, but is anything memorable aside from your day-to-day life, any big events, VIPs coming or any that jumps out at you? Red letter days?
  Rao: [01:29:30]	Honestly, I don't remember much of anything because a lot of things were happening down on the main post. We never went there. And I remember there was a few times where there were things happening at the officer's club, and we would go down there, but we couldn't go in. But I don't remember what exactly was going on. I don't remember all those things because for me, I was just, it was my daily life, whatever I was doing. And I was kind of in Lala Land. And also, because we were just in our own world up there, we didn't have that much contact down there on the main base. The main thing I remember is I dated a guy that was in the Army band, and he was out down there.
  [01:30:00] Martini:	They had a little building right out, near the flagpole.
  Rao:	Yeah, exactly. So, I used to date him. I remember that. But otherwise, no.
  Martini:	Do you remember his name?
  Rao: [01:30:30]	Oh gosh, I should. He was really tall, African American and he played a saxophone. I'd never seen a saxophone in my life. I was pretty fascinated. But he was too nice. That was the problem. Everybody else was not so nice. Well, they were nice, but you know what I mean. And we used to go sometimes, so one of the outings we did do that was off the base is we went to the Oakland Army base, and we used to go party over there sometimes. So that was a big outing for us.
  Martini:	Oh, at the Oakland Army base?
  Rao:	Yeah.
  Martini:	Yeah, that's right. Because they had their own [inaudible 01:30:47] clubs.
  Rao: [01:31:00]	And this guy had a car, and he is the one that drove me there. And I remember also that we saw some kind of music festival at Lake Merritt. I didn't know it was Lake Merritt. I just remember it being really beautiful. And then now I live right next to Lake Merritt. I'm like, "Oh my goodness, I've already been here years ago."
  Martini:	Because there were some events, but it would be after you had left, like when the pope came and...
  Rao:	Oh, no, I don't remember that.
  Martini:	Yeah, I think you'd already left. A little far field, did anyone ever talk about it, or was there any discussion or any knowledge that the Presidio was National Park Service, it was kind of become a future site of-
  [01:31:30] Rao: [01:32:00]	Nope. And I mean, even if I did hear it, it's not something that stayed in my head. I mean, really, it's kind of strange because you were in your military life and your military world in a base that was open to the public, but we just didn't seem to have that much contact with the public because we're in our own world. There's nobody that is dressed in uniforms like we are. Nobody is eating at these mess halls like we are. Nobody's having to get up and do exercise and do PE tests and nobody's going through all this.
  	So, for us, those people over there are just not even in our realm of existence. How do you even talk to a person like that? Because your speak is your military speak, you don't know how to talk to a civilian. But I mean, I was probably the best candidate to get out of the military, but when I got out of the military, I almost went right back in because it just was scary.
  [01:32:30] [01:33:00]	It was scary leaving the military. I felt like the military now that when I look back, I think actually in a way, the military was the easiest thing to do because everything's done for you. You don't have to think, you know exactly what to wear. They tell you when to get up, they tell you what to do. And I know that I'm not going to starve. I know that I'm going to have a roof over my head. I'm never going to be destitute. I will not, because the military takes care of its people. And I made money. I made more money than I ever had up to that point. But what I did with it, I never had any money. I think I got my first checking account, and I used to bounce checks all the time. I had no idea how to do anything really. And I never learned how to drive either.
  Martini:	You don't drive?
  Rao:	I got out of the military without learning how to drive. I'm very proud of that fact.
  [01:33:30] Martini:	So, you got transferred to Germany and-
  Rao:	I was in Worms, Germany.
  Martini:	Worms?
  Rao:	Yeah, like Worms, like WRNS.
  Martini:	Okay.
  Rao: [01:34:00]	Worms, Germany in a place called [German 01:33:45], and I basically got asked to be in charge of this German American friendship club called the Kontakt Club, K-O-N-T-A-K-T. And there was no Kontakt Club on the military base in Worms. And they wanted me to start one. And I was completely lost because just telling me to do something, I mean, what? I'm in a foreign country, never lived in this foreign country before or any foreign country besides India and America. I didn't know what to do. And I'm speaking a language that's not my language.
  [01:34:30]	And then when you come over there, what I speak is high German. That's what I was taught. You come over there and they have a whole different dialect. Instead of saying, [German 01:34:29], they'd say, [German 01:34:29]. I'm like, " Wait a minute, what? What did you say?" You don't understand. And of course, you're in the military base, so you're in your own little American existence there, but you're being told to do something that's outside of that safe haven that you're in.
  [01:35:00]	And you have some German civilians working in the base, that's about your only contact to Germans. But now you're supposed to go out there and talk to just anybody. And you're supposed to bring these people together? No. I mean, I was so naive, and I think it's partially coming from the Presidio going to Germany. I'd come from quite a relaxed military experience compared to many people. And not that Worms was not relaxed. It was kind of relaxed. It wasn't like being in [German 01:35:17] or in infantry unit or anything like that. But it was definitely more organized.
  [01:35:30]	And I remember the colonel calling me into his office. I even have his face in my head even now, and he was kind of a tall gentleman, and he seemed to have kind of a nice demeanor. I was used to my major, my major was very nice to me. He's the one that let me go all the way back to India.
  [01:36:00]	Anyway, so he asked me like, "Okay, so you've just graduated from the Defense Language Institute, and we have this thing, we want to start this club called the Kontakt Club. So, the German American Friendship Club." And I'm like, "Of course." I'm not understanding a darn thing. And he says, " Well, what do you think about that? Would you be able to do that? What do you think about it?" And I said, "Well, actually, Colonel," and I was about to say no. And he's like, "Who do you think you are? You're in the United States Army." And I'm like, "Oh." That was it. I said, "Yes, sir. Yes, sir."
  Martini:	This is not a friendly request.
  Rao: [01:36:30]	Oh, no. I mean, make it sound like it is, but it isn't. And then our office, for my little office was right outside the walls of the military base. It was on civilian land. And I remember I just walked in that building, there's nobody around to really see or check what you're doing. And I had a little corner, a little office, and I just opened the door, and I would sit in there and I'd go to sleep, because I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how.
  [01:37:00]	I wasn't a manager. I didn't know how to manage anything or do anything. But eventually the civilian department, the public affairs department helped me and got me contacts with the TV station. I had an interview, and they had a write up in the... What was it called, The Stars and Stripes?
  Martini:	Stars and Stripes.
  Rao: [01:37:30]	Yeah. And they did a thing on the Kontakt Club. And then I became the coordinator and all that stuff. And we were very successful. We were voted the best Kontakt Club in Germany, a new Kontakt Club in Germany. But unfortunately, I never learned about managing anything. So, after I left, they found somebody who didn't speak German, a soldier. And I mean, basically it didn't survive because I didn't set it up as an entity that would survive because nobody taught me how.
  Martini:	But you made it work. You made it happen.
  Rao:	I did.
  Martini:	You had your orders, and it happened.
  Rao:	Well, I found out that there were so many fun things to do, and so I had to organize all these things and it was a lot of fun. We went drinking and eating, and we went over to [German 01:37:53] and traveled over there and we went to the Munich October Fest. And we did so many things. We rode our bikes on the Rhine, and it was great.
  [01:38:00] Martini:	So you were in the military, what, five years?
  Rao:	It was almost five years. I think it was four years and seven months.
  Martini:	Did you get out because just your enlistment was up?
  Rao: [01:38:30]	So first of all, I had enlisted only for three years at the beginning. But when I got that opportunity to take that test again for the Defense Language Institute, and I did pass. And now they were offering me the defense languages. So it was with the caveat that I had to have at least two years when I got out. And so, then I said, "Yes, I'd extend." So, I did.
  Martini:	All right. And you departed from Germany and came back?
  Rao: [01:39:00]	Yeah, I was in Worms, Germany. And at that time, I got travel a lot in Europe. It was the first time I'd ever traveled on my own, backpacking. I went on europass and SATO office was there to get us on all kinds of trips. And so, I did a lot of that traveling. And during that time, there was the Berlin bombing that happened. That was in a discothèque in Berlin. And I think it was in response to, wasn't it Gaddafi, [inaudible 01:39:15] or something, that bombing? I think it was, wasn't it? It was in the 80s, because [inaudible 01:39:22] '85 to '87 that I was in Worms.
  [01:39:30] [01:40:00]	And I remember, because now I had civilian German friends too, because of the club, the Kontakt Club. Oh, and the Kontakt Club also, even though there was fraternization was frowned upon on the base, in the Kontakt Club, it was so... because we were all in civilian clothes, we're not military clothes. So, we had officers in our club and they were my buddies, and we used to hang out and we didn't go out with each other. But even if people went out with each other, I don't know what would've happened. Because that club brought us all together. It didn't matter if you were an officer or not an officer. This was a way to have contact with the local community that was around us, which was the German community.
  Martini:	So weren't just a little pocket of American GIs surrounding that...
  Rao: [01:40:30]	No, that's what that idea was, that we should meet people and we should know the culture and all that. I mean, it's not like everybody flocked to the Kontakt Club, but the people that did were totally into hanging out and with other people and other cultures and meeting girls of course, and guys. And some of them did get married and or got together and then didn't stay together and then blamed me for it. But it was a great place to meet people.
  Martini:	In really last few minutes, what was your life like after you got out of the military? How'd you get to be where you are now?
  Rao: [01:41:00]	Well, like I said, when I got out, I was still kind of lost. And actually, I wasn't interested in studying. I felt like I'd been busy for so long that I didn't want to study. I didn't want to do anything. But I mean, that idea that I would throw away this money that I would be getting if I studied was like, "No way." And thank God I had that hanging over my head because it kind of gave me that direction that I needed after I got out of the military, like what do I do now?
  [01:41:30]	But I mean, at the very beginning, oh, it was scary. I didn't know how to talk to people. And I was a real talker, but I just didn't know how. I felt like when I came from into the United States, same kind of thing. How do I talk to people?
  [01:42:00]	And our realities are so different. I mean, you're just kind of dumped and now you're supposed to figure things out. You're supposed to figure out where to live and how to live and how to get food. And that's why I said that the military, in a way, was the easiest thing. I knew I would have everything. I need the basics, I have it. And I'm always going to have somebody around me. There's people there. You have all that support system. And the minute you get out, it's like, oh, it's so isolating.
  	And I was probably the perfect candidate to go out and leave the military and be a civilian. But no, it was scary. And I wanted to sign up to be a weekend warrior because I still felt too scared to leave.
  Martini:	You mean the Army reserves?
  Rao: [01:42:30]	Yeah, Army reserve. And I would get a little bit of money, and that was kind of comforting to me. But when I got out of the military, I went back to India to see my family, to see my dad and my stepmother and stuff. And I think that was probably good that I did do that because it kind of slowly, slowly nurtured me because I had people that I knew from home back with me. And I felt better when I came back because now, I'd had a little civilian contact.
  	So then when I came back, then it was easier. And then I didn't want to go back to military, I was back to wanting to do go to college.
  [01:43:00] Martini:	Did you get to go to college?
  Rao: [01:43:30]	I did. And I remember that when I was in the military, I had this guy's face, even in my head, he used to be at the Defense Language Institute. He was Puerto Rican and he used to always sit over there. I don't know if he used to check us in or what, but he used to sit over there, and he'd have his newspaper. And one time I grabbed his newspaper, and I started just reading it. It was in Spanish, but I was reading whatever I thought... I was just reading, and I didn't understand Spanish, didn't know anything about it, but he says, " You have a good accent." And that's when, later on, I was like, "Oh. He said I have a good accent. Maybe I'll just study Spanish."
  	So, I studied Spanish. That's thanks to the military too, because if it hadn't been for that, maybe I wouldn't have done it. I had no idea what to study.
  Martini:	Where'd you go?
  Rao:	I went to City College.
  Martini:	Here in San Francisco?
  Rao:	Mm-hmm.
  Martini:	All right.
  [01:44:00] Rao:	But wait a minute. Before that I did do a couple of classes at Evergreen in San Jose.
  Martini:	Oh.
  Rao: [01:44:30]	Yeah. My mom was still in San Jose at the time. But yeah, it was City College. And then I did all my general subjects over there. And then I transferred to State, San Francisco State. And then San Francisco State, I did an exchange program with them to San Diego State for a semester. And while I was there, I met this guy and kind of got enchanted by him, and he was studying Latin American studies and Spanish. And so, I started practicing my Spanish with him because I was going to the junior college in... No, wait, am I getting.... Yeah, no. I left San Diego State, and I went over to a junior college, and then I did a semester as a student from San Francisco State in San Diego State.
  [01:45:00]	So, I did both, I did junior college, and I also did the San Diego State one semester. But you know what, wait a minute. Let me go back, because actually I started out in San Diego State, so I did a visiting student. So, my first semester in the state system was not San Francisco State, it was San Diego State. But that's because I went over there and I went to a junior college before that, and I just wanted something different. So, I went over to San Diego kind of off the fly. I don't know if there was somebody I knew or what, but I went there.
  [01:45:30]	And then I used to go across the border to Tijuana and get my little Latino experience because I was so frustrated because after being in the Defense Language Institute, learning Spanish in a civilian atmosphere was no good, because I had had the best. And now people were speaking so much English in class that I felt like nobody was learning anything and I couldn't stand it. I just had no patience for that.
  [01:46:00]	And that's because German in the military and my French teacher that I had back in the US school in India, they were excellent. So, after that, I wanted to go on an exchange program, and I had said, "That's the only way I'm going to be able to really speak." So, I went to Tijuana first, and I used to cross over the border, and I lived there for four months because I used to go to the tourist office and the girl over there says, "Oh, well, we have an apartment, we have a room available. Why don't you just move in?" So, I did. And I would go to San Diego State. And then...
  Martini:	And now you work two careers now, right? You fly, you're a flight attendant?
  Rao:	Mm-hmm.
  [01:46:30] Martini:	And you're a member the San Francisco Tour Guide Guild, which is how we know each other. So, when did you start flying?
  Rao: [01:47:00]	1994 is when I joined the airline as a reservation’s person. And then two years later, I became a flight attendant. And when I became a flight attendant was just because I kind of fell into it. I fell into working in the airline. Also, it was because my father got sick and I was working for an import/export firm in South [inaudible 01:47:06], and my dad got really sick. He fell into the coma and all of a sudden, we rushed back to India. And then they were very nice to people at the company because they were selling Indian clothes, actually. And so, they were very thoughtful and they kept my job for me for quite a long time.
  [01:47:30]	But then I wanted to stay to go through the grieving process and go through all the rituals and whatever we were doing. So, I finally wrote to them and said, "Thank you for keeping the job open for me." I mean, actually, I think they said that we can't keep it open anymore. And I was like, "Well, that's okay."
  Martini:	End of the career.
  Rao:	Yeah.
  Martini: [01:48:00]	But I got to imagine that the language skills you picked up, I've heard you when you doing tour guide work. I can imagine you use it a lot flying, too.
  Rao: [01:48:30]	Well, I think the military also taught me all the arranging of programs and tours and all that stuff, that's out of the military. Because in contact in Worms, I had to set up programs for people. That's what I did. And also, well, besides the programs, I was also supposed to receive the new soldiers that were based in Worms. I used to have to give them city tours of Worms. And Worms is a very historic place. It was where the Martin Luther Reformation happened, all those Jewish cemeteries over there. So, I had to take them around. So, I mean, I was getting all that experience. And ironically, before in Fort Scott, I remember them giving me this kind of, some kind of a test that determines what kind of things you'd be good at. And I remember that they said that I would be good as a teacher or a tour guide.
  Martini:	And you did.
  Rao:	And there you go.
  [01:49:00] Martini:	So, any closing thoughts or feelings or about your time in the military, especially here?
  Rao: [01:49:30]	Well, I mean, it is such a privilege to be able to go through the Presidio and tell another story. I feel like the military aspects of it, you can read a whole bunch of stuff all over the place, and if you want to learn from a book, you can. But I mean, somebody said living history to me, well, in a way, we are living history because we have our own little stories. And I feel like the stories is what makes it so alive, because you really feel what that person went through and what it was like to live there as a...
  [01:50:00]	I wasn't any big colonel. I wasn't any big anything. I'm just a person that was living here as a Joe Blow soldier, foot soldier, and just how our life was. And so, when I share that with people, their reaction tells me that it's pretty interesting to them.
  [01:50:30]	And I start cracking up because I think it's so much fun to tell them because it'll always be a special place for me no matter how far I go. I mean, Presidio, it's such a beautiful place today. Of course, sometimes I'm like, whoa, as a time warp because you're like, whoa, it was so different than what it is today. But on the other hand, it's also quite the same too. Not that much seems to have changed as far as the buildings, and although it's happening now, but you still can feel the walls kind of talking to you.
  Martini:	One of the best quotes I got was from a guy, he was an officer here in the 70s, and he was looking around at the Presidio in the main prairie ground. And he says, "It looks just like a movie set of an army base. All you need is soldiers."
  [01:51:00] Rao:	Yeah.
  Martini:	And now Fort Scott is on the eve of being reborn too.
  Rao:	Oh yeah. Yeah. It's very bizarre to me. It's really something.
  Martini:	Well, we're just wrapping up and this has been a great interview, Anita. Thank you so much.
  Rao:	My pleasure.
  Martini:	So, end of interview.
  	Section 4 of 4      [01:24:00 - 01:51:25]

 

Troops at Fort Winfield Scott c1930s

Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 34795

---

"Yes I was assigned to battery end of the Sixth Coast Artillery at Fort Scott in the Presidio of San Francisco, California."- John Taheny

 

• John Taheny

  
  

  John Taheny discusses being part of the San Francisco Harbor Defenses at Fort Winfield Scott in the 1940's

  Date created:

  04/09/2024

  Audio Transcript

  Mr.Chin:	Okay, that means it's on. Yes, you are one of the fellows with Mario Paulini, and Frank Mahoney, and all the rest of them from USF, for the ROTC?
  Mr. Taheny:	Yes, we were in the advanced ROTC classes at USF.
  [00:00:30] Mr.Chin:	Yes. So were you in their age group, in their class, or were you before or after?
  Mr. Taheny:	We were all in the same class.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay. And then that must have meant that you went to OCS at Fort Monroe together then?
  Mr. Taheny:	Yes.
  Mr.Chin:	Yeah.
  Mr. Taheny: [00:01:00]	Now in Fort Monroe, it's August 1943 until... Well I left there in, I guess, it was the very end of February or more likely the very beginning of March-
  Mr.Chin:	So, when you-
  Mr. Taheny:	-of 1944.
  Mr.Chin:	Right and then they sent you back to San Francisco to be assigned somewhere in the Harbor Defenses, was that-?
  Mr. Taheny:	Yes I was assigned to battery end of the Sixth Coast Artillery at Fort Scott in the Presidio of San Francisco, California.
  [00:01:30] Mr.Chin:	Yes and that was the searchlight battery for-
  Mr. Taheny:	That was.
  Mr.Chin:	-Seacoast searchlight.
  Mr. Taheny:	Right.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	Seacoast searchlight.
  Mr.Chin:	Yeah. Now at the school in Fort Monroe, did you specialize in searchlight or did everybody learn the same amount?
  Mr. Taheny: [00:02:00]	There was virtually no instruction with respect to searchlight. Very little of our training involved searchlights.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. So you had to sort of learn what-
  Mr. Taheny:	I did, I had to learn from scratch actually.
  Mr.Chin:	Was there a particular light they assigned you to? Or how did that work out when you got your assignment to that battery?
  [00:02:30] Mr. Taheny:	Well, battery in had, as I recall it, we had about five or six searchlight sections north of the Golden Gate, and the same number south of the Golden Gate along the coast. I can't remember whether we had 10 or 12 searchlight sections.
  Mr.Chin:	Right. By section, what does that mean? Is that a water area or is that amount of the points?
  Mr. Taheny:	No. Well, a section was a group of men from our battery signed to a specific location where we had a searchlight mounted.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  [00:03:00] Mr. Taheny:	It was like a detachment of men there.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay. And I think you said there were about four men assigned to-
  Mr. Taheny:	No I think, I believe, we had six men assigned to a section.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  [00:03:30] Mr. Taheny:	And that would be with one man off each day. So there'd be actually five men on duty, assigned with one man off. And during the daytime naturally there'd be no mission for a searchlight.
  Mr.Chin:	Right.
  Mr. Taheny:	And so generally one man would be on duty at the station and the other four men would have to be there that night.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	During the day they would be free to leave.
  [00:04:00] Mr.Chin:	I see. Now I don't know too much about searchlights at this point, myself. So you are the one that's going to supply me with the most specific information that I think I may be able to get, unless I found an old technical manual or something like that.
  	So the lights were, I understand they had a controller that did the actual pointing of the lights from a remote distance. Is that how they worked?
  [00:04:30] Mr. Taheny:	No, the controller was a device that was used for aiming the anti-aircraft weapon.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	Because you would not point the weapon directly at the target or the plane, that would be for anti-aircraft I'm speaking of.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay.
  [00:05:00] Mr. Taheny:	You had to take into account the speed of the plane, and the distance of the plane, and the angle of the direction of the plane. And that all would be factored in on a computer via controller. So in other words, you have to lead your target.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny: [00:05:30]	And you had to lead it in the right direction. Same as if you were shooting at a flight of ducks [inaudible 00:05:27] at a distance.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes. Now, so how were the searchlights?
  Mr. Taheny:	The searchlights would be... you can see where the beam of the searchlight is-
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	-going. Now as far as the location, I don't recall what controller. I think you'd have to aim it by you visually site your target.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. So it would be controlled right where the light was then?
  [00:06:00] Mr. Taheny:	That's my recollection, yes.
  Mr.Chin:	So all the men for that particular section would be right around the light somewhere?
  Mr. Taheny:	No, because the power was provided by a mobile generator. So you had men assigned to operate the generator.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay.
  Mr. Taheny:	And you'd have men assigned to operate the light.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay.
  [00:06:30] Mr. Taheny:	And as I mentioned when I first spoke with you, it's been a long time.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	And I was not very deeply steeped in the technical operations of the lights themselves.
  Mr.Chin:	So you, as a, I guess, a second Lieutenant would be responsible for mainly what type of things other than the actual workings of the sections?
  [00:07:00] Mr. Taheny:	Yeah the men who operated the section were trained to carry out the technical operations [inaudible 00:07:12] at each section.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. Okay, so they probably controlled the light right there. So I would imagine the generators were at little distance away from the actual light itself, maybe?
  [00:07:30] Mr. Taheny:	Yeah I can't figure, I guess, how far away they would've been situated.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay.
  Mr. Taheny:	They would've cables running. Record of cables running from the generators to the light.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes. Now they were in phone or talking contact with-
  Mr. Taheny:	Somebody had to tell us where to...
  Mr.Chin:	Yeah.
  Mr. Taheny:	If there was a target out there and where to aim that, to pick up the target.
  [00:08:00] Mr.Chin:	Yeah, so would they be hooked up-
  Mr. Taheny:	There were radar, you see. They had radar in the Harbor Defense that would locate targets out there. We didn't just start scan. We didn't just scan the ocean-
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	-with the lights hoping to pick up something.
  Mr.Chin:	Right. So there would be somebody higher up somewhere. They give an order they want a certain area illuminated and [inaudible 00:08:24] the light would go on.
  Mr. Taheny:	Yeah.
  [00:08:30] Mr.Chin:	Were these lights, were they in placed in some protective like sandbagged in, or dug in, or camouflaged, or anything?
  Mr. Taheny:	No, not really.
  Mr.Chin: [00:09:00]	Okay. Let's see, I've always wondered about these lights. I mean, in the darkness, once they turned it on, if there was a hostile vessel or somebody out there, what were the possibilities of them being able to zero in on the light source and knock it out after a couple of minutes or something? Was that-
  Mr. Taheny:	Well, there would be lights coming at them from different directions.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny: [00:09:30]	I mean, these sectors illuminated would be overlapping sectors of illumination, you see. There was one light that could scan a certain number of degrees. And the next light would be able to scan so as to overlap the sector illuminated by the first light. And then we had our artillery in placements mounted on the coast too, which would be firing at these targets.
  Mr.Chin:	Right. Do you happen to remember approximately how far a beam could reach out of it? Could it go into far out into the ocean?
  Mr. Taheny: [00:10:00]	Theoretically, I guess, it could reach the horizon from where it was mounted. And they were mounted at an elevation, which we're talking about... I mean, this question would involve fog and the clouds and all that sort.
  Mr.Chin: [00:10:30]	I see. Were the lights has to be turned on at any intervals for unidentified ships or boats that wouldn't respond to any signals or anything like that, do you remember of?
  Mr. Taheny:	I don't recall. When I was there, and I was there for a period of about four months, I don't recall there ever being an instance where we had to turn on the lights because of the approach to some vessel that was not identified as properly being there.
  [00:11:00] Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny: [00:11:30]	The only time I recall our ever turning the lights on was when we had an operation at night. It was involving a test of our minds where we had a boat towing a target. And when the mines were detonated along the course there to [inaudible 00:11:32] based on the sharpness of our mind and management.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. Mr. Paulini had mentioned something that he thought that you maybe able to answer for me. He said, there's a difference between the regular searching type searchlights and barrier lights. Do you know anything of that nature? What barrier lights might have been?
  [00:12:00] Mr. Taheny:	No.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay. Was there some sort of welcome or an indoctrination when you joined the Sixth Coast Artillery Regiment? Any ceremonial type of say, the reception, the General's house for all the new officers?
  Mr. Taheny:	For a new second lieutenant, hell no.
  Mr.Chin:	Well, I thought maybe at the end of the year or something, they might have done something-
  Mr. Taheny:	We're the lowest of the low.
  [00:12:30] Mr.Chin:	Well, yes. It never hurts to ask these questions. I never know what may come of it. But was Paulini brought in at the same time you were? Was there-
  Mr. Taheny:	No.
  Mr.Chin:	That was a different time.
  Mr. Taheny:	No, in fact I don't remember him being in the Sixth Coast Artillery when I was there. Did he tell you when he was there?
  Mr.Chin:	Well it was in 1944, the approximate dates, I'm not sure of. I think he was there between 44 and 45.
  [00:13:00] Mr. Taheny:	I received the first assignment from Fort Monroe-
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	-in our graduating class and I had my choice. And I took this assignment to be Sixth Coast Artillery.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. Was that because you were a native?
  [00:13:30] Mr. Taheny:	No, I'd gotten sick a couple of days before our scheduled graduation from OCS. And they let me out of the hospital only because the captain in charge of our class, raised hell with the doctors at the hospital. And they let me alone just to graduate and then I had to get back. And I was in the hospital for two more days.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny: [00:14:00]	And after graduation, we were granted 10 days delay, what they called 10 days delay on route, to our assignment which was to the officers group there at Fort Monroe.
  [00:14:30]	So most of the fellows in the class, well everybody in the class except me was free to get home if they could manage to get transportation to go anywhere they wanted. And because of my loss of 4 out of those 10 days, I wasn't able to get home or even try to get home. So I guess the officer in charge of the group decided to let me have the first choice.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny: [00:15:00]	So there was several assignments open to the... there was four assignments open to the Sixth Coast Artillery. And there were a few more, I'm not sure of the number. I think it was about 19. It was an industry coast artillery unit that was, I think it was a battalion that was assigned to... or maybe it was a regiment. It was assigned to Fort Funston.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	But the group assigned to Fort Funston moved out shortly after that. I think they may have been converted to a field artillery unit.
  [00:15:30] Mr.Chin:	Yeah something like that. So your duty took you to both sides of the Golden Gate or were you-
  Mr. Taheny:	Yeah.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay. And were there any particular things you remember?
  Mr. Taheny:	My duty was respect to the several sections required, that I make a weekly inspection tour for our sections, for our battery.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  [00:16:00] Mr. Taheny:	That meant I had to hit each one of those at least once a week.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	And then in addition, I was assigned as a battalion inspection officer. I had to make an inspection once a month, not only of our searchlight sections, but also of our gun in placements, north and south of the Golden Gate.
  Mr.Chin:	I see, the second battalion.
  Mr. Taheny:	I don't remember what battalion number.
  [00:16:30] Mr.Chin:	Okay. Let's see, what type of guns that were in placements did this cover? It wasn't the big-
  Mr. Taheny:	It was 16 inch.
  Mr.Chin:	It was.
  Mr. Taheny:	I guess, we had was a 16 inch.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. So it must have been the long range gun battalion then I guess?
  Mr. Taheny:	Yeah that was the biggest one we had. They've all been removed in our sense.
  Mr.Chin: [00:17:00]	Yes. Any memorable things that you or any anecdotes of any type that you remember of when you had to make these inspection tours? Anything funny happen, or dramatic, or just whatever might stick out in your mind that you've remembered all these years?
  Mr. Taheny:	Nothing really memorable.
  Mr.Chin:	These weren't surprise inspections or these were ones that they were expecting?
  Mr. Taheny:	Well, I guess they knew they'd be inspected once a month, but they didn't know just when I was coming.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  [00:17:30] Mr. Taheny:	I guess that's why one of these sections, it was a gun section. I remember finding the enlisted man that was supposed to be on guard duty while the rest of them were asleep. This was late at night when I went there. He was down on... This was down south, around Monterra, down there on the coast.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  [00:18:00] Mr. Taheny:	And the enlisted man was not at his station. He was in his car or in a car with his girlfriend on the highway. He got a little hot water.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. I didn't know they had any gun batteries that far south.
  Mr. Taheny:	I'm trying to think of what that was now. I'm trying to think of what it was. I just can't remember.
  Mr.Chin:	Maybe it was-
  Mr. Taheny:	In the radar station.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	In the radar station.
  [00:18:30] Mr.Chin:	Yeah they had radar stations that far down there. Did you also have to inspect some base-end stations or that wasn't might have been part of it?
  Mr. Taheny:	I just don't remember.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay.
  Mr. Taheny:	I could have.
  Mr.Chin:	Now, you are a native San Franciscan or a bay area person, right?
  Mr. Taheny:	San Francisco.
  [00:19:00] Mr.Chin:	My book is also trying to give a flavor of what the city was like during the war years, and things like night spots, stores, Chinatown, all that, any of those things like that. Did you go into the city much at the time that you were there or even before?
  [00:19:30] Mr. Taheny:	Well, of course I was living here in San Francisco up until my departure for Fort Monroe in August of '43. So I was here from Pearl Harbor Days up until ranch.
  Mr.Chin:	Right.
  Mr. Taheny:	I remember I was at the football game, I guess on December the 7th. I didn't even know about Pearl Harbor until I left to the game because I was here at the stadium.
  Mr.Chin:	Alright. What were the blackouts like for you?
  [00:20:00] Mr. Taheny: [00:20:30]	Well in addition to going to school, I also worked. I had a job and I had to pay my way. And at the time from Pearl Harbor and after that for several months, I guess, I was working as a doorman at the United Artist Theater at night. And I knew that we'd get an air raid siren now and then, signaling that we had to had a blackout. And it was my responsibility to make sure that all the exterior lights were out.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	And any lights that could be visible to the street were out.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	It was pretty good. Occasionally somebody would forget, and you'd see a light on in a hotel across the street or something like that.
  Mr.Chin:	But inside the business could keep going.
  [00:21:00] Mr. Taheny:	Sure, that's about the only place you could go. We go inside a theater or you have to stand out in the street in the dark.
  Mr.Chin:	I forget where the United Artist Theater was. Was that on one of the big theaters in Market Street?
  Mr. Taheny:	It was at that time. I'm not sure what it's like now.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	For the first run theater, it was owned by United Artist. It was United Artist Theater.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  [00:21:30] Mr. Taheny:	Actually it wasn't own by United Artist, it was known by Joe Blumenthal and another guy by name McNerney. And it was right on the south side of Market, facing up Jones Street.
  Mr.Chin:	I see, okay.
  Mr. Taheny:	Right opposite the intersection of McAllister and Jones.
  Mr.Chin:	I see, yeah that's right. Right in that downtown. Let's see, did a lot of the servicemen go in and out of that particular theater?
  Mr. Taheny:	Sure.
  [00:22:00] Mr.Chin:	Were there any times when there'd be some trouble where MP or SPs had to be called or anything?
  Mr. Taheny:	I don't know. They never had... I never saw anything like that.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay. Was Market Street, I mean during the daytime, I guess, it's fairly busy. But at night in those days, did people go out much at night or because of the blackouts and et cetera, the streets were rather quiet?
  [00:22:30] Mr. Taheny:	Well, we didn't have too many blackouts. People would go out. The municipal railway was still operating. So people, although there was gas rationing, and people who had cars didn't get much gas allowance unless they had some special allotment.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny: [00:23:00]	But the ordinary person, I guess, got what they call an A sticker and I'm not sure what that gave, two gallons a week or something like that. But quite people would be out at night.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. You mentioned that you left the Harbor Defenses to get into an assignment that, I guess, you felt would be something that would be more exciting or would see more action in.
  Mr. Taheny:	Yeah.
  Mr.Chin:	Was that how you felt at the time?
  [00:23:30] Mr. Taheny: [00:24:00]	When I was recruited, the impression I had was that I, well I was asked if I would be willing to be a fire shooter behind enemy lines. And the way the questioning went, I was expected, I was to be parachuted into Japan proper. But I figured, hell, they'd train me to do a mission and when that was accomplished, I assumed they had a provision made to get me out.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	I'm not so sure now that was the fact. I went blind to drop me behind Japanese lines in Japan proper, but anyway that was the situation.
  Mr.Chin:	Is that when you were recruited to go in for a different type of job?
  Mr. Taheny:	Into the OSC, yes.
  Mr.Chin:	Yeah. Now when you-
  Mr. Taheny: [00:24:30]	Apparently when this fellow came out, he was an army officer recruiting for the OCS. When he came out to the Harbor Defenses, I think they must have warned everybody not to go see him. There was no command that we see him. They must have alerted all of the officers above the grade of second lieutenant.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	There were only a few of us that were actually interviewing.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. And you did that on your own volition. I mean, you heard about this and you were interested enough to go and find out?
  Mr. Taheny:	Apparently, I was the only one who bit. Nobody else did at that time.
  [00:25:00] Mr.Chin:	So your four months of being in the coast artillery in San Francisco, wasn't enough for you, you wanted to do something else?
  Mr. Taheny:	No, I felt like I wasn't even in service. I wasn't in the service of my country.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay.
  Mr. Taheny:	I was able to get home every night.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	My home was down in the Richmond district.
  Mr.Chin:	Right.
  [00:25:30] Mr. Taheny:	It was a little walk, a couple miles or so, but I could walk from battery in to my home, and I did that.
  Mr.Chin:	Where was battery in? Where were the barracks?
  Mr. Taheny:	It was at Fort Scott.
  Mr.Chin:	Fort Scott, okay.
  Mr. Taheny:	Right around the parade ground.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. So you had a bachelor officer quarters there?
  Mr. Taheny:	Yes.
  Mr.Chin:	Yeah, I'm just assuming you were a bachelor then. And then you would just go home whenever you had a chance back to your parents?
  [00:26:00] Mr. Taheny:	It was every other night. And the only reason it was every other night is because one of the officers, as I mentioned the other night, he's away at some training program or school. And I was led to believe and believed that he was shortly scheduled to finish. And when that happened, we would be off two out of three nights.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	So, I mean like two out of three nights I could leave the post and walk on home to go wherever I wanted, do whatever I wanted. I'm free to do that.
  [00:26:30] Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	And I didn't feel like it was really in service.
  Mr.Chin:	Did you run across many other personnel enlisted or officers at HDSF that wanted to transfer into something that was more active?
  Mr. Taheny:	The only one I know of was this classmate of mine who I mentioned the other night, George Albrush.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  [00:27:00] Mr. Taheny:	And he was assigned to a unit that was scheduled to go overseas. And he was found to have an insufficient amount of time with the troops.
  Mr.Chin:	Yeah.
  Mr. Taheny: [00:27:30]	And consequently, he was reassigned up to the Harbor Defenses. And he got a room in the bachelor office court. He shared the room with me. And then when I couldn't tell him where I was about. He didn't find out until the morning I was leaving to Washington DC, when I had come back to get my, whatever it was I had to get. Sunday morning, I know that. And he had to wake up and saw me and he didn't know what I was doing.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny: [00:28:00]	I told him I couldn't talk about it because we had been instructed that it was very hush-hush which deals was [inaudible 00:27:55]. And so I couldn't tell him, except to say that I had joined the OSS and that was it. And I guess later when he started asking questions and found out, I guess, about the recruiter that was out there. And the next thing I know while I'm overseas when he shows up a couple months after I got out there.
  Mr.Chin: [00:28:30]	I see. Now when they, [inaudible 00:28:20], yes. So when they recruited you, they said that they were going to be training you for the purpose of dropping behind enemy lines somewhere. Was that it?
  Mr. Taheny:	I was asked if I would be willing to be dropped behind enemy lines.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay.
  Mr. Taheny:	I said there were various missions for the OSS.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny: [00:29:00]	They had intelligence. They had gorilla warfare. They sabotage and so on. And not knowing what I might be assigned to, he didn't say you're going to be doing this or you're going to be doing that. He got recruiting and he just want to know whether I would be willing to-
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	-have that done.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	So I would.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. So then you had your training and then you went out to India?
  Mr. Taheny:	Yes.
  Mr.Chin:	So did you actually-
  Mr. Taheny:	Our detachment was assigned... Our mission was in Burma.
  [00:29:30] Mr.Chin:	Did you have to have any... Did they put you through any language training for some languages of that particular area or did you have that?
  Mr. Taheny:	Very little, actually. We would've had to rely upon interpreters.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. Did you operate just as a unit amongst Americans or did you have to liaison with other forces of other countries?
  Mr. Taheny:	Are you talking about me, specifically?
  Mr.Chin:	Yeah, I guess so.
  [00:30:00] Mr. Taheny:	I did not get into Burma. I guess it was all these strange smells and whatever else was in the air over there. And I had the mother of all the hay fevers, that's what they called it. The doctor would not let me go.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	They would not let me go into the field.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny: [00:30:30]	He was afraid that I might let loose or run a horrible sneeze as we were waiting to ambush the Japanese patrol or something like that.
  Mr.Chin:	Exactly.
  Mr. Taheny:	So they won't let me go.
  Mr.Chin:	Exactly, so you did some use-
  Mr. Taheny:	Our unit was operating behind Japanese lines in Burma.
  Mr.Chin:	So then you stayed in India then?
  Mr. Taheny:	I did. I was assigned to supply.
  Mr.Chin:	I see, okay.
  Mr. Taheny:	I was assistant supply officer.
  [00:31:00] Mr.Chin:	I see, all right. I had heard, they mentioned that many of the troop used in the Harvard Defenses during that last or the later parts of the war, many of them were not your A1 physical specimens-
  Mr. Taheny:	1A? I mean, there's a draft classification 1A.
  Mr.Chin:	Well, no. I guess what they call them limited service troops or something. Maybe some people that would be older or people that may have not, maybe had hearing in one ear.
  [00:31:30] Mr. Taheny:	I know. But I know in my battery we had one man who had sight in only one eye, but that was no handicap.
  Mr.Chin:	No. But I had just heard that they tended to put them in maybe units like Harbor Defense Units at that stage of the war when they wanted to move other people.
  Mr. Taheny: [00:32:00]	It's possible. I couldn't tell you. I do know though that we had men in our battery who would not be fit to, let's say, be assigned to the infantry-
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	-because of some physical disability.
  Mr.Chin:	Right.
  Mr. Taheny:	But they certainly were capable of serving in the armed forces in some other capacity.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes, true. Okay. Well, I can't think of any-
  [00:32:30] Mr. Taheny:	I know one of the fellows that was in my class at USF. He was drafted and he served in the army. He had sight in only one eye.
  Mr.Chin:	I see. Now, well I guess of course they probably only did that during, I mean, as far as the war situation went. I would imagine if it was peace time, they might not have accepted a lot of them that time.
  Mr. Taheny:	That could be.
  [00:33:00] Mr.Chin:	Well I think that this runs the gamut of what questions I could think of to ask.
  Mr. Taheny:	All right.
  Mr.Chin:	If I have any more, I will certainly get in touch with you again. Should I send you a copy of whatever comes out when I write this material before it gets into publication so that you can... I mean, if your name just happens to be mentioned as part of a quote or something, you may...
  Mr. Taheny:	Well, you have a tape of our conversation?
  Mr.Chin:	Yes I do.
  [00:33:30] Mr. Taheny:	So I assume that whatever you write will be checked against the tape?
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	Okay, but I'm not concerned about what I said through then.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay. Well, it'll be accurate to what you remember, I guess, is basically what we have there. All right, is Taheny, is that an Irish name?
  Mr. Taheny:	It is.
  Mr.Chin:	Okay, I'm amused that I've got-
  Mr. Taheny:	How do you spell it?
  [00:34:00] Mr.Chin:	Well, I think they gave me T-A-H-E-N-Y.
  Mr. Taheny:	That's correct.
  Mr.Chin:	And I'm just amused because I have a whole listed. Maybe that's what the Harbor Defenses, it seemed like every one of them was an Irish person. I've got a whole list here.
  Mr. Taheny:	I tell you, Paulini is not.
  Mr.Chin: [00:34:30]	Well he's the only one, believe me. But I guess being from USF, there's a lot of probably Catholic, Irish, Italian, et cetera, like that. I suppose that's how I have all these names. But yes, you're in good company in my list. What is your zip code by the way? I have the rest of your address in case I have to send you something.
  Mr. Taheny:	9-4-1-2-7.
  Mr.Chin: [00:35:00]	Okay, 9-4-1-2-7. All right, Mr. Taheny, I appreciate very much your talking to me and telling me all this material that I really need for the book. This is the only time or the only searchlights source that I've found. So this fills in a nice gap in the material.
  Mr. Taheny:	How do you spell your last name?
  Mr.Chin:	C-H-I-N.
  Mr. Taheny:	Chin.
  Mr.Chin: [00:35:30]	Yes, I'm also a San Franciscan too from the Chinese, from up on Russian Hill that's where I came from. And I've been down here in Los Angeles for about 10 years. It's just the type of work that they have down here that keeps me here. But one day I'm hoping to get back up to San Francisco to stay.
  Mr. Taheny:	You say you grew up here or you...?
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	You were.
  Mr.Chin: [00:36:00]	Yeah I grew up, and went to school, and everything. And I moved down to Los Angeles about 10 years ago for work. And at that time I thought LA is great. It's sort of a nice suburb which I've never lived in before. And I thought it would be a good thing, but I'm sort of tired of that now. I'm beginning to like what I miss in San Francisco more and more.
  Mr. Taheny:	So, how long has it been since you lived in San Francisco?
  Mr.Chin:	10 years ago.
  Mr. Taheny:	Well it's changed awful lot, I'll tell you.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes, it has.
  Mr. Taheny:	I don't think the change has been for the better, frankly.
  Mr.Chin: [00:36:30]	Well, curious you should say that, because there was a time that I didn't like the way that the city was back during, I don't know, maybe the seventies, I didn't care for that. It was a little too tumultuous for me even at that time.
  	But now it seems to be getting back. I noticed there's a lot more families around in certain places. And I don't know, it seems that businesses have come back to a great degree, maybe.
  Mr. Taheny:	Too many of them are leaving, but let's hope that it does come back.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes, well I hope so.
  [00:37:00] Mr. Taheny:	It was a great city. My parents were both born here also. And my grandparents came here back in the, I guess some of before 1890. They would not recognize this if they were back today, for sure.
  Mr.Chin:	Well, yeah those big tall buildings that they've put out downtown there. It sort of-
  Mr. Taheny:	One of my grandfathers was a motorman back in the days of the horse cars.
  [00:37:30] Mr.Chin:	Now, do you work in the city?
  Mr. Taheny:	I retired. I was a chief trial attorney in the City Attorney's Office.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	I retired in 1984.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	There was a young fellow in our office. He left actually before I did. Dalford Chinn, but he had two Ns in his name.
  Mr.Chin: [00:38:00]	Well I guess that's another, it's just sort of a anglosize spelling of the name I suppose, it's what it is. Well then, if you were down in your job, in the city hall, the civic center area, you must know a little bit of what I mean when things seem to be a lot more tumultuous back at a certain time than it is now, I think, I don't know. But I don't live there at the current point, so I don't get to read the paper every day to see what's going on.
  Mr. Taheny:	It was subsequent to the 70's when we... I don't know if you remember, the murder of George Moscone.
  [00:38:30] Mr.Chin:	That's exactly what I am thinking about at this very moment when I'm talking about this.
  Mr. Taheny:	George was a good friend of mine. I knew him before he ever graduated from law school.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	In fact, he used to work at a playground across from where I lived. He offered to babysit my kids at the playground anytime my wife and I wanted to go out.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  Mr. Taheny:	That's kind of a guy he was.
  Mr.Chin:	I see.
  [00:39:00] Mr. Taheny:	I liked George, but I mean, you talk about turn-out. I remember what happened when Dan White who killed them both was sentenced to a short sentence.
  Mr.Chin:	I know.
  Mr. Taheny:	This one, all hell broke loose.
  Mr.Chin:	Yeah.
  Mr. Taheny:	Well that was a turn-out, all right.
  Mr.Chin:	Yeah I think it was just the week before that Jones-temple thing happened.
  Mr. Taheny:	Yeah.
  [00:39:30] Mr.Chin:	I remember that particular week very well. I mean all that happening all at once it was quite a shock.
  Mr. Taheny:	Yeah we've gotten our shares of turn-out here.
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  Mr. Taheny:	Remember when they had this house subcommittee and this house committee on an American activities. Held some hearings in the chambers of the board supervisors here. And the chairman, what's his name? Stennis from Mississippi?
  Mr.Chin:	Yes.
  [00:40:00] Mr. Taheny:	I think so. And I don't remember what the riots that broke out there that was dragging people down the strips of city hall. They were disruptive. And the police were too damned restrained actually. They let it get out of hand. And so we always get our share of these things.
  Mr.Chin: [00:40:30]	Yes I know. Well, it's a colorful place. My father worked at the civil service commission. He was a personnel analyst there. So he spent quite a bit of time at city hall in those days. But, well it's still a great city.
  [00:41:00]	I was rather sort of surprised the fact that Agnos was dumped in Jordan, who came in. I'm not sure what that signifies. I thought the city, I mean, the way that certain communities had organized a thing was that it was that Agnos would be around. Either that or those people didn't come out to vote for them. I don't know.
  Mr. Taheny:	Well, I guess it's a little of each. There's no simple answer to these things.
  Mr.Chin:	Yeah I guess not.
  Mr. Taheny:	I mean, there's no one or inclusive answer.
  Mr.Chin:	Well anyway, it's been nice talking to you.
  Mr. Taheny:	Thank you. Good to talk with you.
  Mr.Chin:	Well, yes, if I have any other questions.
  Mr. Taheny:	I hope you will write a good book.
  Mr.Chin:	I am trying my best.
  Mr. Taheny:	I hope you find better sources than I, I think if you're going to do it though-
  Mr.Chin:	Well-
  Mr. Taheny:	-if you're going back quite a waste. And there's too many people have left the scene.
  [00:41:30] Mr.Chin:	Well, that's true. I'm trying to... Some of them figure this maybe sort of the last hurrah. But I'm talking to enough people where I'm getting different views, sort of paralyzing together and I'm getting a completed picture as I can.
  Mr. Taheny:	It seemed hard to find out who the people were that were assigned there then.
  [00:42:00] Mr.Chin:	Yes, that's true. And I think my big break, as far as finding people came after I talked to Mr. Paulini because he's the one that is sort of opened the floodgate by introducing me to a few other people who have introduced me to some others.
  [00:42:30]	And I'm finally getting a wider sampling at this point, so things are going better. There's more to write about. The book is going to be thicker, I think. So that's what'll happen, but I'll make sure that you do get the final results of this thing. And I appreciate it very much.
  Mr. Taheny:	You're welcome.
  Mr.Chin:	All right.
  Mr. Taheny:	Well, good luck.
  Mr.Chin:	I'll say good night. Okay, good bye.

 

Battery at Fort Winfield Scott

Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 22012

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"The sixth Coast Artillery was there and then all the headquarters batteries because all the commanders and everything else was up there. So that was... Well, you know where Fort Scott is, don't you?" -Loren Clark

 

• Loren Clark

  
  

  Loren Clark discusses the 18th Coast Artillery regiment at Fort Winfield Scott in 1941

  Date created:

  04/09/2024

  Audio Transcript

  Martini:	Testing one, two, three. Testing one, two, three.
  Clark:	That's hot. I got to guarantee you, it's hot.
  Martini:	Did you start out in the Coast Artillery in San Francisco or [crosstalk 00:00:20].
  [00:00:30] Clark: [00:01:00]	Yeah. Well, early '41, they reactivated. In fact, in January of '41, the 18th Coast Artillery, which was the retired unit, and then when we get the first draft East come in, they reactivated the 18th. And we were the first ones to start in, in January of '41. Only going to be there for a year, you know, and all of that. And I was from the Midwest and they sent all of us out here. There was 465, I think, they sent out here to form the whole 18th Coast Artillery. They was three batteries, but I don't remember what they were. These the only ones I can remember.
  Martini:	Yeah. You were an inductee then at '41?
  Clark:	Yeah. Yeah.
  Martini:	So your headquarters was at Fort Miley [crosstalk 00:00:01:14]?
  Clark:	No, it was Fort Scott.
  Martini:	Fort Scott, that was the overall headquarters for the whole Bay Area?
  Clark: [00:01:30]	Yeah, that was the Coast Artillery headquarters for the Bay Area. The sixth Coast Artillery was there and then all the headquarters batteries because all the commanders and everything else was up there. So that was... Well, you know where Fort Scott is, don't you?
  Martini:	Sure.
  Clark:	It's right above the Toll Plaza there. Well, we were in those great big, old time... You know, real old barracks up there.
  Martini:	Oh, those big Spanish type ones?
  Clark: [00:02:00] [00:02:30]	Yeah, the great big ones they were built in, oh God, I don't know, probably in World War I, at some time--right around that era. Yeah. But we went up there and then we took all of our basic training from there and that's where we... Well, we stayed there until the war started. And then we went to Funston and stayed down there. Well, I stayed down there for about two and a half years after that, when they went overseas. But we were down there in... I forget the name of the battery, but it was a 155 millimeter. They set up down by the Olympic Club. There's a... Oh, I don't know. They tore all the trees out. They've got a Nike site or something in there, or radar station or something in there, but they've torn all the trees out since then, but we'd moved back in those trees and set up four Coast Artillery guns.
  Martini:	I think keeping the records we've got, that one didn't have a real official name. It was kind of called Battery Bluff. That's what that is called.
  Clark:	That might've been too. Really, I don't even remember. In fact, I don't even remember whether it had a good name or not.
  Martini:	It wasn't like big 16-inch or down the way at Battery Davis or anything.
  Clark: [00:03:00]	No. No, we were just a little bit below that. We went to South, right on the Olympic Golf Course, right in that little corner in there. So we stayed there for a little over two years. I was down there and then they thought I better leave.
  Martini:	Getting too home-y in San Francisco?
  Clark:	Yeah. Well, I guess they decided that they weren't going to invade the coast so they started getting rid of some of us. After three years in the Coast Artillery, you can get pretty lax.
  Martini:	Really? Were you on duty December 7th, '41?
  [00:03:30] Clark:	No, I was sound asleep. No, the first time I heard about, there were somebody come and woke me up and told me that they bombed Pearl Harbor. That was on a Sunday. Yeah, we were all asleep here. Yeah. I was sound asleep when that happened.
  Martini:	Did they put you guys on the special alert or anything like that?
  Clark: [00:04:00]	Yeah, they recalled everybody. They was a bunch of them who had gone back East on furlough over Thanksgiving. And of course, all the telegrams are sent out that their furlough was immediately canceled and come back to duty. And of course, you were restricted. Everybody was restricted to the barracks and you couldn't go any place. I mean, just to the PX [Post Exchange] and back as far as anybody was allowed to go there. So after everybody got back and then about a month later, when they moved just down to the Funston. So then we actually set that whole place up, help build the barracks and the whole bed down there.
  Martini:	They kind of put together quick.
  Clark:	Yeah, they was the typical old barracks. I guess they probably had 10,000 sets of the plans all the same identical type.
  [00:04:30] Martini:	We've got about a hundred of them in the park.
  Clark:	Yeah, I wouldn't doubt it.
  Martini:	Two-stories [inaudible 00:04:33].
  Clark:	Two-stories, yeah.
  Martini:	[inaudible 00:04:35].
  Clark:	Yeah, they had one standard model and that's about all they were.
  Martini:	Yeah. Aside from the standard, the basic that you got when you were inducted, what kind of special instruction were you given for the Coast Artillery?
  Clark: [00:05:00]	Well, just more or less on the six-inch guns that we were on at that time and that's all we had out there. I mean, basic military... The training course, we had four months of them. We were the first ones. So we had a long seeds at that time. But other than that, we just had the basic firing the guns and so forth, like that.
  Martini:	Were you picked and trained for a special job and not move from there? Were you kind of versatile so you could move from one to another?
  Clark: [00:05:30]	Well, no. You do one for two or three months or six months or something. And then pretty soon, they shuffle everybody around. All you could do probably five or six jobs. We'd all just have practice every morning and you'd always get on somebody because somebody would be on KP or somebody on guard duty or something, so you'd have to get over and do something else on one of the gun crews. And then there was always five or six extras that they'd always slide in someplace and help out and so forth.
  Martini:	Did you work on the disappearing six-inch guns or the ones on pedestals?
  Clark: [00:06:00]	No, these were the disappearing, Battery Crosby down there. And it was the disappearing six-inch gun. Well, they were antique when we got there.
  Martini:	Yeah, really?
  Clark:	But yeah, they were old.
  Martini:	About 50 years old.
  Clark:	Yeah, they were old. They were World War I guns. They were installed during the World War I. Well unless the Battery Crosby that we was on, it was. And it was antique. When we test fired it and it waddled and just fell back. It come back all right, but everybody running. We got clear out of the room. We didn't know whether it was going to make it or not.
  [00:06:30] Martini:	But those things, have they been kept up all those years or they’ve been kind of mothballed or something?
  Clark:	Well, they were all wrapped in cosmoline. All the gun barrel and all the... They had a lot of stainless steel parts and stuff like that, the chamber and stuff, it was all wrapped in cosmoline and then a big canvas with cosmoline around that.
  Martini:	That stuff’s disgusting.
  Clark: [00:07:00]	Oh, I know, but it... Well, of course we had to clean all up, but probably 20 coats of paint on the barrel. It was all exposed to the weather and I guess ever so often, probably the Corps of Engineers, so somebody go paint at the army, go down and painted another coat. The old typical green, but it was in good shape and we cleaned it all up in the breech. It was in really good shape. And as soon as you get the cosmoline off, it was ready to go.
  Martini:	Then they cut it up about four years later.
  Clark: [00:07:30]	Yeah.Well after the war I don't know what they did, but they was about, I think, 3,000 pounds of lead in the bottom of it for counterbalance. And somebody got away with it. It was square blocks, about a foot long and about four inches square. It was counterbalance in there. I don't know the Army. I heard that they dismantled all of those old guns through there.
  Martini:	Yeah. On Monday, I talked to a guy who was in the Coast Artillery. No, actually, he was in the Ordinance Department stationed at Scott. He gave out the contracts for scrapping those things in '43.
  Clark:	Oh, he did?
  Martini:	Yeah, every one of those big guns at Fort Scott and in fact, all the obsolete ones around the Bay, $50,000 was all that was paid. That was the only bid they got where anyone would pay the government. Everybody else wanted the government to pay them the full amount.
  [00:08:00] Clark:	Oh, boy. The metal in those gun barrels was worth that much.
  Martini:	He said the guy made back his investment what he paid the government just on the let alone from the counterweights. Everything else was gravy.
  Clark:	I wouldn't doubt that. Like those 12-inch guns, they were so much in high of class steel. That was probably expensive steel was in there.
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Clark:	What a deal he had.
  [00:08:30] Martini:	No kidding. Wow. So do you remember anything from when you had your daily drills, what the procedure? Was any orders that were given or anything like that? When you first drafted the battery, was there a set procedure for getting the thing ready for firing off?
  Clark: [00:09:00]	My God, it's been so long ago. I don't remember. Not as far as set procedure, we just go down and they'd just start in our little routine, the little practice routines. So we went through every day with the dummy shells and the dummy powder cakes and stuff like that.
  Martini:	Did you fire, really fire the things very often?
  Clark:	Yeah, we fired them but... Well, I guess bout every six, eight months, we'd have target practice. The tow boat had pull a target out in the ocean for us. And we get to fire them all the time. Then sometimes they put the supercharge in and we get a little farther out.
  Martini:	What's a supercharge?
  Clark: [00:09:30]	Well, it's look... Powder is about, oh 15 inches long. Like on the six-inch guns and then there's about a six-inch supercharge that goes on the other end of it. It gives it a little extra charge, more velocity to go out there and your range is a little longer. That's what it amounts to. But we got the fire them real often. Yeah.
  Martini:	Yeah. It wasn't like everyday you fire them or something?
  Clark:	Oh no, no. No, you'd run about 15 rounds in each gun, but it'd only be about every six months or something like that.
  Martini:	That was to make the gun last longer.
  Clark: [00:10:00]	Yeah. And to get everybody used to the noise and how to hold your mouth open and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And what to do when you fire them. I think, I guess, just to actually experience to get you used to fire them.
  Martini:	How fast could you get around off on one of those things?
  Clark:	Until you get off, what do you mean?
  Martini:	Get it fired and reloaded.
  Clark: [00:10:30]	I don't remember exactly what it was. It was pretty fast for as much as they had to do to get it. I know it was something like every minute or minute and a half or something like that you could. By the time and the... Like the 155s, because they just jumped back a little bit and then they stopped right there and you could just open the breech and swap them out and start getting ready another charge ready to put in. It was about a minute and a half, I guess, something like that. They would go pretty fast.
  Martini:	Do you think that with antique guns like that and everything, San Francisco really would've been able to put up any kind of fight had the Japanese sailed in?
  Clark: [00:11:00]	I doubt whether there would have been much fight at all. When I first went in the service, they told us that on December the 7th, there nine anti or three-inch anti-aircraft guns in the Bay Area. And you can see what nine would have been... I mean, little three-inch guns would have done against the fleet of airplanes to coming flying through. That would have been nothing.
  Martini:	How did you get into being a spotter in the base end station?
  Clark: [00:11:30]	I could not say. Just lucky, I guess. Well, that was about the way they chose somebody, they asked us if you wanted it. I know they pick it and they ask if want to go. Well, naturally we did, because you got out of that routine at camp, you missed all of that and got out. And when you weren't on duty, you write your own passes and go to town or do whatever you want to do then. So that was kind of a select position that everybody would like to get into. I don't really know how I was chosen in. Just one of the things, I guess.
  Martini:	I guess Sutro Heights was better than being way out in the wild of Point Reyes or something.
  [00:12:00] Clark: [00:12:30]	Yeah, that was a real good duty up there. I tell you, we like to stay up there. Well the street car’s across the street. Well, I don't know, two or three of them come out there and the old car barn there and it was ideal right across from Playland and you go down there. And when we was off, we used to get there at night time all the time. But the other station that was way out... Well, it was where West Lake is now, way out in there, right up on the bluff in there. They made one temporarily out there and just dug a hole and boarded up and set the instrument and stuff in it. But this one was nice. It was all concrete and everything. Have you been up to see it?
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Clark:	What's left of it?
  Martini:	It's pretty vandalized.
  Clark:	Yeah, it's torn up, something pitiful now.
  Martini:	Yeah, there's still a couple leftover Moran County, where people haven't got to it and it still has the bunks inside and the paneling.
  Clark:	Oh, it does?
  Martini: [00:13:00]	Yeah. And the round benches for setting the scope. We're going to try and get enough pieces to put a whole one together. We even found the pedestal for the scope, but we haven't found the scope yet.
  Clark:	You haven't found the scope yet. They were powerful. I don't remember what the power was, but they were real powerful. Because on a clear day, we could see Farallon Islands just as clear as a crystal out there. You could see ‘em good.
  Martini:	Okay. Do you remember what gun you spotted for or what battery or was a-
  Clark:	It was for our own. See, we were for our own gun battery for-
  Martini:	The 155.
  Clark: [00:13:30]	Yeah, for the 155, we were for our own emplacement. And then a couple of batteries on the other side. They had observing stations on this side too. They would spot for them across there because they're triangulated. Is what it amounted to, to figure out where the ships were. I mean, we just give them the aspects and they plotted it up in the plotting room and that's all there was to it then.
  Martini:	Say one of them tow target was going by, do you just spot on the thing and report that in or do you have to keep on giving the readings every so often?
  Clark: [00:14:00] [00:14:30]	About every 30 seconds, you give another reading. We have one guy who kept turning the crank and following near the guy who was reading it. And you just kept right on the target constantly until they told you to cease. And then they'd turn and then they'd come back and they’d fire another few salvos or something, but you always kept on the target. One guy would wind the instrument and the other guy would... I think about every time the bell rang, I think it was about 30 seconds and you'd have to give a new setting. He just automatically... Well, the degrees and everything stayed the same mostly, but the minutes and the seconds, he just read those off until the degree changed and then he'd give the whole thing all over again. But other than that, I mean, you kept right on it all the time. And we used to practice on ships coming and going.
  Martini:	Merchant man, just keep at [inaudible 00:14:38]?
  Clark: [00:15:00]	Well, it was what we were supposed to be looking at. And we practiced on them, like to tell you to get on the forward stack like a destroyer because they were fast. And so we got a lot of practice on them. But they designated what part of the ship to use. And we’d track those coming and going or regular merchant ships because a lot of them went out and turn to the south, see, and they went right square in front of us, which gave us a perfect target to track. So we practiced on them a lot of times, especially in the day like this. Now, clear day, you could just see forever out there. So, yeah.
  Martini:	Up at Sutro Heights at that time, during the war and everything and because of the base end station up there, were the public kept out or were there people walking and having picnics on top of you while you're in there?
  [00:15:30] Clark:	No, but they, they had it posted down there and they weren't supposed to be people in there, but they did come in from the backside and come up and lay in the sunshine on a good day and stuff like that. But they're mostly just the park people, who was the only ones that was in there was maintenance crew, taking care of it. But the general public was supposed to keep out. They weren't allowed up in there at all.
  Martini:	Was that base end station, was that specially built for you guys or was that already there?
  Clark: [00:16:00]	No, that was already there. I don't know when it was built, but it was already there when we went up there and we just moved in and took over.
  Martini:	There's two sections to it, the upper one and lower one.
  Clark:	Yeah. Well, there's room for two in each one of them. See, there's two bunks on each one of them, and there was four of us. So that's the reason we had both of them. We only had one instrument in the top one.
  Martini:	It was originally designed for two instruments.
  Clark:	Yeah, you could... They had a pedestal down below and they can use that either. For somebody else wanted to use it, they can use the bottom one, the same thing, but there is nobody else wanted it, I guess. But four of us just stayed right there in the bunk.
  [00:16:30] Martini:	Yeah. They ran a count and there's something like 50 to 75 of those things scattered up and down the coast.
  Clark:	They're all over in the Bay Area. If you ever find all of them, you're going to be lucky.
  Martini:	Right now. Got a plan that shows every one of them and what every one it was for too.
  Clark:	You too?
  Martini:	It would have seemed to be a lot simpler to do, but taken maybe four or five of them and had everybody worked the readings off the same four or five base stations, but every battery had its own set.
  [00:17:00] Clark:	Yeah, every battery had its own set. And of course, it was all coordinated with the gun battery and everything. So maybe that's probably the reason they did that, or I don't know.
  Martini:	Did you spot when they fired the 16-inch guns down at Davis and all? Were you near those things when they went on?
  Clark:	Yeah. Well, we didn't spot or do anything for them. We went down there to see them fired.
  Martini:	Yeah, it must have been quite a show.
  Clark:	Yeah, it was... Actually, there's less noise to them than there was on 155.
  Martini:	Oh, really?
  [00:17:30] Clark:	Yeah, they had a boom type, but those 155s had a snap. They do like a rifle shot. You know, have that sharp crack of a rifle, but these had a big boom and it didn't hurt you. It didn't hurt your ears or anything near as bad because they'd roared. But those 155s, they give you a pretty sharp snap in there in your ears. You better keep your mouth open. You break your eardrums. They always told us not to use cotton. Just open your mouth, that equalize the pressure.
  Martini:	That will do it?
  [00:18:00] Clark:	Yeah. And then on your eardrums and they don't hurt you near as bad.
  Martini:	I hear these horror stories about guys being in those case mate standing too near the gun, being knocked over, knocked back and everything else there.
  Clark:	Well, you could with a concussion or the recoil of it and everything else. You could be knocked over probably. Then, well, what happens in the first place, is a suction. As the charge goes out, it's sucks you forward. It was such an air current going out.
  Martini:	Oh it just all the air in the-
  [00:18:30] Clark:	The air or the blast of fire sucks you forward. And then as you try to stop, well you can fall over or something else. So if you're not looking for any, I don't know what's going to happen. But your initial pull is forward. And then of course you throw yourself back. And when you do, while the charge is gone and you fall back on your can by then. Oh, I see them stumble around. I don't think I've ever remember seeing anybody fall down, but I've seen them stumbling around from it, not being used to it or something like that.
  [00:19:00] Martini:	This one guy, that ordinance guy, he used to take a big grass down once his six- inch guns fire. And they wouldn't tell him where to stand. They wouldn't tell him to prepare. You guys--revenge.
  Clark: [00:19:30]	Yeah. Yeah, they probably did. Yeah, we used to. Well, of course, we were so close and they always told us when they were going to fire and we used to get out and just stand back up there and watch them some ways. But you could actually see the project of a lot of them. If you're standing right there looking and because we can hear them when they're ready to fire and we watch the end of the gun and you could see the black projector going for... Or maybe the first thousand feet or so. And you can follow it up there.
  Martini:	Could you do that on the 155s?
  Clark:	No. No, that thing was such a blast. And just the fire come out of the end of it, you couldn't see nothing.
  Martini:	Uh-huh (affirmative).
  Clark:	You have fire and smoke. You couldn't see anything. And then [inaudible 00:19:44] when looking, you turned your back most of the time.
  Martini:	When you were up there down where they got the Nike site now, did you have permanent concrete mounts for the guns or they just kind of tilted in there and sandbagged?
  Clark:	Where?
  Martini:	At Funston.
  [00:20:00] Clark:	No, they were come permanent concrete mounts and on rails. They had regular rails that they turned on. They swiveled on the rails, big center part and then the outside was the ring. It was all concrete. They concreted them in and everything else. So they were permanent. It was called a permanent placement.
  Martini:	We can't find any trace of those things. We've looked. They're there on maps, but I guess the Nike guys did away with it.
  Clark: [00:20:30]	Yeah. They probably tore them all out, and everything else. But they were about, well I'd say, four foot of concrete in there. ‘Cause when you know the recoil on those things, they snapped back pretty good.
  Martini:	Sure.
  Clark:	And so I don't know. I remember one, but I know it was an awful block of concrete that went around that rail was set into, because we can turn them 360 degrees. You could go all the way around on those. Yeah.
  Martini:	Yeah. What was the range on that thing?
  Clark:	I don't know. It seems to me like it was 14 miles.
  Martini:	It's pretty good.
  Clark:	Yeah.
  Martini:	Better than that six-inch gun.
  [00:21:00] Clark:	Yeah, they were a good gun. They were a French gun. And they were a good gun. That seemed to me about 14 miles, I think.
  Martini:	They still have one of those in the Presidio. They have a museum there now and they have one of the French 155s sitting out in front.
  Clark:	Yeah.
  Martini:	[inaudible 00:21:15].
  Clark:	Oh, they did?
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Clark:	We have one right down here in Guerneville. The post has one down here.
  Martini:	Oh, yeah?
  Clark: [00:21:30]	Set in... Well, if you go from here, go out Guerneville through Pocket Canyon out of Guerneville across the bridge, you'll see it on the right side. It's an old 155, sitting out there that the VFW has set out there.
  Martini:	Is it the French model or is it the American [crosstalk 00:21:36] ?
  Clark:	No, I assume it's the French model. I don't know for sure.
  Martini:	I’ll have to go take a look at that on my way back.
  Clark: [00:22:00]	Yeah. Well, when you go out, when you get down to the main highway, just turn to the right and go up to the middle of Guerneville. And then turn to your left, little across the bridge. And it's about probably half a mile out there. You'll see it on the right hand side. There's an old... Oh, it's a stadium where they have the rodeos and stuff like that and it's set just past that. But I guess they keep it painted up because I've seen some red lead painted on it here lately. So maybe they've been out there fixing it up and everything, take care of it. I think I've got a picture of one of them in there.
  Martini:	Yeah, I'd like  to get a look at the pictures that you mentioned.
  Clark:	I'll see. Get a picture to show you there. It's not anything, really.
  Martini:	No, that's okay.
  [00:22:30] Clark:	There's one there. See, these were the old type barracks here. You've seen those. Yeah. Some place...
  Martini:	Oh, the Lexington.
  Clark:	Yeah. That's a battery Saffold. That was a disappearing. That's a 12-inch. See, that was right up back the Fort Scott, right behind the barracks in fact.
  Martini:	Uh-huh (affirmative).
  Clark:	Right on the bluff.
  Martini:	That is, that [crosstalk 00:22:52]
  [00:23:00] Clark:	That's was the one right on the bluff out there, right up behind the Toll Plaza there.
  Martini:	Uh-huh (affirmative). Is that thing over the back, is that some of that cosmoline you're talking about or is that-
  Clark:	Yeah, that's the way they were wrapped. See, this was a breech in here and it was all just cosmoline and then this is canvas, just tied around with bailing wire. And it's just loaded with cosmoline.
  Martini:	Was this one in use at the time when you guys were there? Was that one you just sort of sealed up in there?
  Clark:	Yeah, it was just like that. It was never used. It was never even unwrapped or anything else.
  Martini:	Uh-huh (affirmative).
  [00:23:30] Clark:	But you could see the great big old barracks. You had lines and lines of bunks.
  Martini:	And now, in the army, it's like dormitories.
  Clark:	Yeah, [crosstalk 00:23:38] everybody's got that. There's old Battery Crosby.
  Martini:	[Inaudible 00:23:43]. Is that a drip pan underneath the breech?
  Clark:	I imagine that's probably what it is. Yeah. More than likely sandbox in there. It gets the oil and stuff probably when it got warm.
  Martini:	They actually let you guys take pictures of these things. I thought maybe there was tight security in there.
  [00:24:00] Clark:	No, this was before the war, you see. And they didn't, nobody even bothered because everybody had cameras. Guys took pictures all over it and they never even bothered.
  Martini:	Pretty cramped for room in there, wouldn't it?
  Clark: [00:24:30]	Yeah. Well, you had... See, two, three, four, five. Yeah, about six rows of bunks. I mean, you were just in a great big, massive hall just down this side, then there was where you stepped up now, the other side are the stairs so there was just another big mass all on the second floor.
  Martini:	This picture over here, the parade ground, that building over there, as the news point out was a stockade on post.
  Clark:	Yeah, it is?
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Clark:	That was a stockade.
  Martini:	Oh, even then?
  Clark:	That was a stockade then. Yeah. Yeah, that was a stockade. It's still a stockade, huh?
  Martini:	Uh-huh (affirmative). It sure is.
  Clark:	I haven't been through there for 20 years since I've been up there. And that was it. That was one of the gun barrels. They made an incinerator out of it.
  Martini:	Trash dump.
  [00:25:00] Clark:	Yeah, that one’s out of concrete. I don't know what that one is.
  Martini:	That's a 12-inch gun on a barbette mounting. I think that one's Battery Godfrey because I recognize this little strange box over in the middle.
  Clark:	Yeah, that was probably going down to the ammunition cellar there. Yeah.
  Martini:	All your gear lined up on the [crosstalk 00:25:29].
  [00:25:30] Clark:	Yeah. Well, when you got it all out, you get proud of it, you took pictures of it. Though there's another one, the same thing, I guess. But see these have, we have the scope up here and everything on it at that time. See how I was covered?
  Martini:	Yeah.
  Clark:	We had all of those on there then.
  Martini:	That wasn't for actually spotting for the gun, was it?
  Clark:	No, it was to set everything, all the readings for the gun. You had all your [inaudible 00:25:50], but then your elevations and all of that stuff to sit on there, and that's where it was. There's another sample. That is still the same one.
  Martini:	Yeah.
  [00:26:00] Clark:	There's not too many pictures of guns though. This was out after we got to Funston. So here's the way one of them was set up. See, we had to camouflage with the sandbags around the perimeter on the outside of it. They don't show too good.
  Martini:	There's another one down there.
  Clark:	Yeah, that's the picture.
  Martini:	Yeah, the breech block.
  Clark: [00:26:30]	It was open when we're probably having a dry run again. You do that about every day for a little while and then you clean it up and wipe it off and start painting.
  Martini:	And then the same thing next day.
  Clark:	Yeah, it was about the way it was too. Just see, we had all had tents down there.
  Martini:	That was just before you got your barracks built on?
  Clark:	Yeah, that's when we first moved down there, they put us in those tents and they come along and built the barracks little later on.
  [00:27:00] Martini:	The tents?
  Clark:	Yeah.
  Martini:	It's just like my dad's crap except his were all of bombers.
  Clark:	Oh yeah, well... See, I was going with my wife at that time. So naturally, I noticed some of these pictures are gone. That's the barracks set of procedure. Yeah.
  [00:27:30] Martini:	Mm-hmm (affirmative). Now, this hospitality house, that's still standing down there.
  Clark:	Yeah.
  Martini:	What was that? Was that like a USO type of thing?
  Clark:	Yeah, it was USO. Actually, the USO run it. I know the city built it or what, but it was all where they had the big USO dances and stuff like that in there. It's still there, I guess. I don't know what. I guess they're still using it.
  Martini:	So I don't know what it’s used for now.
  Clark:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
  [00:28:00] Martini:	There's only a couple of them. Are those the fatigues that you wore?
  Clark:	Yeah, strictly the old blue denims, fit like a gunny sack.
  Martini:	You didn’t, by any chance, keep the uniform, did you? The fatigues?
  Clark:	No. No, the only thing I got is one of the hats.
  Martini:	You got one of the hats?
  Clark:	Yeah.
  Martini:	Those are really rare. We can't find one of those.
  Clark:	You can't?
  Martini:	No, they've been looking for one at city museum to do a copy of one to display.
  [00:28:30] Clark:	Yeah. I got one, well, just about like that. I found it the other day.
  Martini:	Oh, you don't have the fatigue?
  Clark:	No, not the fatigue hat. No.
  Martini:	That's the one I'm looking.
  Clark: [00:29:00]	Oh, Jesus, my friend had one from... Well, he wasn't in... He was from another branch of service, but he wore it up here all the time in the summertime. Of course, eventually, every year he wash it once a year and it finally deteriorated. This kid, Hendrickson, he lives down in San Rafael, someplace down there. I met him on the golf course one day and I've never seen him since, but I know he was working here. He said he worked in San Francisco and lived in Sandersville. I think his named is Heinrich or something. He was a good... That's the Golden Gate Bridge and so forth. But he's the only one that I really know that was there. Yeah, that's afterwards. Yeah.
  [00:29:30] Martini:	You take any photographs while you were up at the spotting station there [inaudible 00:29:32] you have?
  Clark:	God, I don't know whether I did or not. I don't think so. I might have taken some and sent them at home or something like that, but I don't remember any. Well, there wasn't too much to take to tell you the truth. That's about all there is to it. See, there's not too many pictures of guns. I mean, you-
  Martini:	That's okay.
  Clark: [00:30:00]	You know, when you get used to them, you don't want to take pictures of it. You see it every day, that's a whole hat so you don't really care about taking pictures.
  Martini:	May I take a look at it?
  Clark:	Oh, certainly, help yourself. Certainly.
  Martini:	Great. I brought my camera. I'd like to, if possible, get a photocopy some of the photographs.
  Clark:	Oh, certainly. Well, you can have them if you'll promise to send them back.
  Martini:	I'd like to do that because I can do a better job in the city than I could [crosstalk 00:30:18].
  Clark:	Yeah, you can if you want to do that, but I just kind of hate to lose them after all these years.
  Martini:	Sure. Sure. Yeah.
  [00:30:30] Clark:	Alcatraz. Yeah, that was-
  Martini:	That was probably shot from up at Fort Scott.
  Clark:	Could be, yeah.
  Martini:	Yeah, because it's so far away and everything.

 

 

 

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