Fort Mason was an active US military post from 1851 then the army turned the lands over to the National Park Service as part of the Golden Gate National Recreaion Area. Even with hundreds of years of stories at this place, here are a few that have been saved. Unlike army records, and military details that are usually easy to find, these stories also talk about the lives of the civilians and staff who lived and worked there, as remembered by them.
"Well, my memory of names is almost zero at this point. However, I would state that the original legislation - Public Law 92-589 - which established the Golden Gate National Recreation Area transferred two portions of Fort Mason" -Col. Kern
Colonel John Kern
Col John Kern discusses his military career and how he was involved as the main liaison between the Army and the National Parks Service in the transfer in an interview with Sara Conklin of the National Park Service in 1995
Kern: (009) My family name is Kern, and my mother was a Wiedemann...
Conklin: (010) How is that spelled?
Kern: (010) W-i-e-d-e-m-a-n-n, and basically, came from the East Coast, both born in the Brooklyn, New York, area.
Conklin: (012) Do you have any siblings?
Kern: (013) I have one older sister, Elaine Magliulo,
M-a-g-l-i-u-l-o.
Conklin: (014) So, in the birth order, you're the youngest then?
Kern: (014) I'm the second and youngest, yes.
Conklin: (015) How old are you now?
Kern: (015) I'm sixty-six.
Conklin: (016) Do you have a family?
Kern: (016) I have four children living, one deceased, and I have seven grandchildren, soon to be nine.
Conklin: (018) Thank you. And where were you raised?
Kern: (019) I was raised - my early years - in New Jersey, in a little town called Roselle, about 19 miles from New York City. R-o-s-e-l-l-e. And I went to school in Roselle up through the eighth grade. And that was during the period of World War II, and I never got to finish high school. Instead I was sent to a military school - Randolph Macon Academy - in Virginia, and it was a 55-C Unit, which was a category similar to junior ROTC, but it was one in which the school had more control over the faculty. And I finished the equivalence of high school at Randolph Macon Academy. The war ended just in my senior year, so I was not called off to war, but I would have been otherwise trained as an officer to go directly in there.
Conklin: (029) Who raised you?
Kern: (030) My mother and father raised me.
Conklin: (031) You've answered some of my questions ahead of time here. Did you go to college?
Kern: (033) I have four degrees. I spent 4-1/2 years at the Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, and I worked my way through school there. I was... I took a B.S. in Business Engineering, and then I took... I was called into the Korean War in 1951. And while in the service, I also attended... took some extension courses from the University of Virginia, from Catholic University, and also I spent a couple of years at the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute on their faculty, and while there, I took additional courses. I later attended for three years the Missouri School of Mines in Rolla, Missouri, and picked up a B.S. and a Master of Science in Civil Engineering, and then later I attended the Army Command and General Staff College and received the equivalent of the second Master's degree there.
Conklin: (046) "Ralla" is "Raleigh" - how do you spell that?
Kern: (046) R-o-l-l-a. Rolla.
Conklin: (046) Oh, Rolla, I missed that. Briefly discuss your military career, and especially those assignments that related to your last job.
Kern: (049) Well, I had a typical long military career - a total of 31 years and one month service. I started out in the service as a second lieutenant; since I had been a distinguished military graduate from ROTC, I was offered a Presidential direct commission in the regular Army, and I accepted that back in the early phase of 1952. I had actually entered the service in October of '51, and was sent off to the Korean War. I served as a platoon leader, a company commander, and a staff officer in the 24th Infantry Division during that war. I rotated back to Japan. My wife joined me in Japan, and my oldest daughter was born in the city of Fukuoka on the island of Kyisha.
Conklin: (061) Would you spell both of those?
Kern: (061) F-u-k-u-o-k-a is Fukuoka and Kyisha is K-y-i-s-h-a It's the southern major island of the...Japan. And then I returned from there to teach as an assistant professor at the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute. From there, I was sent to an Army Advanced Officers course, and from there, I was sent to the Missouri School of Mines. So, I was actually an Army officer attending as a captain in the Army at the time, attending the School, and I was also appointed to their faculty; and I taught in the ROTC Department while I was attending classes and where I received my Baccalaureate and Master's degree. I was then assigned to Germany, to the Fourth Armored Division for 4-1/2 years, and served as a company commander and a staff officer in that division; and returned to the United States assigned to the San Francisco District, which at that time, was at 100 McAllister Street in downtown San Francisco. There was my first assignment with Civil Works, which is another role the Corps of Engineers play in which we provide all of the navigation and all of the flood control and much of the construction work for reservoirs, dams, water supply and the like, across the nation. We also built and operate a large number of recreation areas, as a matter of fact, far more than the National Park Service! But, I... while at the San Francisco District, my District was responsible from Crater Lake in Oregon and all of the wild rivers along the coast of California: Smith, the Eel, the Van Dusen, Trinity, Klamath, Russian, all of the way down to San Luis Obispo in the south. And it's there where I got my love of San Francisco and got to know my area... my way around the area, and that played a prominent role in future assignments. From the San Francisco District, I was sent back to Korea, and if you recall from history, the famous Pueblo incident - I was the guy that got the radio message, and I was serving as the War Plans Officer for 8th United States Army, and also the United Nations Command and the U.S. Forces/Korea. And upon my return back to the San Francisco District, I served another 2-1/2 years there and was sent to Vietnam during the war, where I commanded the 69th Engineer Battalion in the Delta, and built many of the highways and railroads - not railroads - highways and airfields and the like in the southern part of Vietnam. From Vietnam, I returned directly to the Presidio; and from here, through a variety of assignments, I served as either the Assistant Chief Engineer or the Chief Engineer for the next 11 years. I retired from the service as a colonel in 1981; was recalled for an additional year because of my duties with the GGNRA and the National Park Service, and ask 6th Army Engineer, and I retired a second time in December of 1982. I've maintained a close liaison with the Park Service since my retirement, and have been prominent in many of their affairs since.
Conklin: (106) Thank you. Boy, you were a busy man. I first met you when the Department of the Army was transferring the Nike Missile site to the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, and I have some questions about that period of time. Who were the key people involved in the negotiation? And would you spell names that could be problematical as you discuss different people?
Kern: (112) Well, my memory of names is almost zero at this point. However, I would state that the original legislation - Public Law 92-589 - which established the Golden Gate National Recreation Area transferred two portions of Fort Mason, which was divided into three parts: There was the lower part, the pier area, which is now so prominent with the Fort Mason Foundation; and then there were some warehouses and the rest in the upper part. Both of those were declared excess to the U.S. Army; and then there was a remaining portion that the Army continued to occupy. Those basically were the quarters and the like. On the... headlands side of the Bay, we had three U.S. Army posts: Fort Baker, which is on the east and west side of the Highway 101; then Fort Barry; and finally, Fort Cronkhite, on the other side of the lagoons. Cronkhite is C-r-o-n-k-h-i-t-e. And those three posts still exist and are now under the National Park Service's jurisdiction. However, when the law was passed, the Army had a right to remain in Fort Cronkhite and Fort Barry for three purposes: The one was for the use of the rifle range and for military training; the second one was to continue to occupy family quarters that we had then and still have to some degree to this day; and the third was for Nike. The Nike system was still active. We had previously had two Nike sites over in Fort Barry and Fort Cronkhite. One was a Nike Ajax, which was a non-nuclear-headed anti-air defense weapon system; and the second one, which had a larger warhead which could either be conventional or nuclear, was the Nike Hercules system. And we had Hill 87 for the Nike Ajax, and Hill 88 for the Nike Hercules. Those hills are still in existence over there, and represent where the...one of the three portions of each Nike system existed. A Nike site is divided into three areas: One is the administrative area, and I'll speak now for Nike Hercules site, which was the only one active when I occupied my position, but the administrative area where the people slept and lived and ate and were fed is now what is the Point Bonita outdoor recreation area for the YMCA. The actual firing battery is the one that we have since preserved and is still in existence for visitors to look at. And the third site was the integrated fire control site which is on top of the hill where we had the large radar antennas and other transmission equipment. It was important that the two sites, the firing site and the integrated fire control site, be invisible one from the other, since they used FM transmission; and that was why some of the peculiar language in the release to the Park Service included that they couldn't put a high rise building in the bottom of the valley. And they, of course, had no interest in building a high rise building, but couldn't understand why we couldn't block the air between the two. The Nike site itself was still active and was still in a functioning, performing role at the time of the transfer to the GGNRA. Within about a year-and-a-half, the Army nationwide abandoned all of the Nike sites except for one on the tip of Florida, pointed at Cuba, and a training site that was down in Fort Sill, Oklahoma. The Nike Hercules site was complete. Everything was there. And I felt it was a terrible waste to destroy this thing which had been the primary defense system for the United States for 30 years, only to have some historians 50 years later try to go back and reconstruct it. And I appealed through Army channels, with limited success, but no particular encouragement, except from my commanding general, Lt. General - later Four Star - General Stillwell. And - Richard G. Stillwell. General Stillwell was the original commander at the time of my appointment to the Liaison to the National Park Service, and also the Military Coordinator. He was also designated the Secretary of the Army's field representative for all matters pertaining to the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. And the - I went through General Stillwell, and with his blessing, I went through the Department of the Army channels, and eventually got to communicate directly with General Creighton Abrams, the Chief of Staff, United States Army. And General Abrams was the senior officer of the Army at the time, and he had been a famous commander in Vietnam. And General Abrams gave me permission to transfer to the National Park Service everything that was non-explosive or non-classified on the Nike Hercules site. That included the mess hall, the mess trays, the knives, forks and spoons, and all of the equipment. Bill Whalen, then General Superintendent of the GGNRA, did not want the integrated fire control site or the radio vans and things that were up on the mountaintop. And so the Army disposed of those through normal surplus channels, much of which was sent to overseas sites in Turkey and Greece and other places surrounding the Soviet Union. The Army did transfer two dummy Hercules missiles, six launchers, and the entire site intact to the National Park Service. We also made arrangements for the Army to provide interviews and the Park Service was given permission and encouraged to go up and to interview the actual people - and for one month prior to their departure, so that they would know exactly what the roles of the Army air defensemen were. It was a rather isolated life; it was rather peculiar to the Army functions, and to the defense of the nation. Reluctantly, I admit that the Park Service stubbed their toe on this and never did get those interviews; and eventually, the young officer that commanded the Nike site disposed of much of the training aids and property, because he had to clear the site by a given date. But we were able to transfer the sites as such. The other site, the old AD-7 site is where World College West was given space to conduct their educational functions until they got a campus of their own, and where the Yosemite Institute still exists. And that was their training site. The old launch site for Nike AD-7 was what we converted into, and got permission to give to, the Marin Mammal Center; and that's where they operate from. And the integrated fire control site is up on the top of a mountain, which was completely removed, and it's where one of the old 16-inch gun positions existed, prior. But Nike was important, 'way back. I might mention at this time that when the Public Law was first passed, the Secretary of the Army and the Secretary of Interior each decided that they would coordinate the transfer of functions and responsibilities through a three-tier arrangement. The first tier was the Secretary to Secretary; each of them in turn appointed a field representative. Mr. Howard Chapman, who was then the Regional Director for the Western Region of the National Park Service, was the Secretary of Interior's appointee; and he appointed the General Superintendent, Bill Whalen, as the on-the-ground, first layer of communication and negotiation. In the Army side, the Secretary of the Army appointed General Stillwell, the Commanding General of Sixth Army, as his field rep; and he in turn appointed me to two additional positions, that of Liaison to the National Park Service and also the Military Coordinator for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. And the arrangement was such that Bill Whalen and I were to try to work out all transfers, all meetings, all negotiations, inter-service support, and the like, at our level. If we could not agree, we had the referral to the second tier, the General and Howard Chapman; and if they could not agree, it would go back to the Secretariat level in Washington. I'm proud to say that 100 percent of all the negotiations were handled at the Superintendent, Bill Whalen, or his successor's and myself for the next 11 years - we never had a dispute that we couldn't resolve locally, that had to go back for higher approval.
Conklin: (255) In terms of the Nike site transfer, what were some of the behind-the-scenes steps that were necessary? Was there any tricky stuff that...?
Kern: (258) Well, we allowed the Park Service access to the... first, to the administrative area, and some of the Park people were more interested at the time in supporting what now is Yosemite Institute, and what was also World College West, in those buildings and barracks on the other side of the lagoon. And one of the Park Service staff - or several of the Park Service staff - went up and actually stripped the kitchen, and took the stoves and all of the functioning cooking equipment out, and took it over to the other mess hall to build. Ironically, that same gentleman later left the Park Service and worked for the YMCA; and it moved back in and had to come to me with a red face and asking me if I could help him scrounge some stoves that he had actually stolen from himself years earlier! And I got a kick out of that. But it was the type of thing that happened. But a lot of the equipment was dissipated, and I don't think the people had a real feel for the importance of history of getting something totally complete, so they didn't have to go back and reconstruct it.
Conklin: (279) What do you think were the greatest successes in that whole transfer, and some of the failures?
Kern: (281) In my view, I think - Bill Whalen is a good friend of mine, and I appreciate and respect his performance in the past to a great extent. But he had come from Yosemite, where the theme was open space, or leave nature basically as it is. And his first orders or requests to me were: "I want the land, and I don't want any buildings on top of it. If you can, as you vacate buildings and so forth, if you can get the Army to knock 'em down and haul 'em away, it will sure be...save me. I'm here to run a Park which is basically open ground." Bill later changed his tune; but for instance, when the Fort Mason lower level was transferred, he wanted me to knock down all the piers and remove them. And I felt that those were beautiful structures that would serve a very useful future need. And now, of course, that's the Fort Mason Foundation - probably one of the highest visitation and utilized areas in the recreation field in the country! Likewise, at Fort Cronkhite, we had a - previously had - a regiment assigned and stationed there many years back. And they had rows of barracks which still exist. And we had some buildings along the front row, and he asked me to knock those down; and reluctantly, we tore down three - two or three of them. And then finally, I talked him into saving them, and we took one of them, and for $1,600 we converted it into what is now the Park Service's little ranger station over there. And we were able to convert a building. And I felt that we needed to preserve some of these structures. The rifle range they wanted us to bulldoze down, and I felt that should be preserved because that was built by Lt. General Arthur MacArthur, the father of what became later Five Star Douglas MacArthur. And that was... again, we used that on many occasions. The old balloon hangar, which was for a barrage balloon, which now exists behind the riding stable, was a structure that they wanted torn down because it was in bad condition. And it's the last surviving barrage balloon, now of historic value; instead, we were able to go in and fix the base of it so that horses would not injure themselves, and they could run on top of wood and dirt inside. So, that's now become an indoor corral for horses, where it was originally a barracks [sic] balloon hangar.
Conklin: (329) Great. Back to the Nike for just a minute. You were working at a time of great anti-war sentiment, especially in the San Francisco Bay Area. Bridging an agency charged with the protection of the country as a liaison to an agency whose mission included reflecting a wider range of values, how did that dichotomy play out for you, or was it ever an issue?
Kern: (338) On the Nike site, it wasn't too much of an issue, because the Army controlled all of the access, the tunnel; and pretty much, with military police patrols and the like, the public didn't get into what is now the Headlands area. Gradually, as we relaxed that and allowed them in, they were not allowed near the Nike sites themselves; but once a site was vacated and it was open to the public, we had a great deal of desecration of property. Some prior to the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. The anti-war sentiment, for instance, just prior to the GGNRA entering the scene, we had people that went up there with acetylene torches and cut open areas that we had welded shut to preclude damage, or where there was actually a threat to public safety. We had tried to make the sites as safe as possible, but it was a real problem back in those days. And in the early phases, the Vietnamese War was not a popular war, as far as the people of the country were concerned; and unfortunately, people that don't think tend to take their anxiety out on the people who serve in the military, when they really are doing the bidding of the Congressional representatives and the President of the United States. They're not making foreign policy, they're merely executing what they're directed to do. But people that - as I refer to them - the "mental midgets" have a tendency to try to take it out on the nearest person in uniform and the like, and we had our fair share in the city of San Francisco.
Conklin: (368) Thank you. What tensions were evident, and, did these anti-war sentiment tensions - how that affect your job? Were you walking a tightrope at any time?
Kern: (374) I was in a tough position a good bit of the time. Many of the Army people thought that I was "giving away" land and facilities to the Park, and the Park looked to me as the only link in order to be able to get things that they needed and wanted. When the Golden Gate National Recreation Area started, we had a meeting in General Stillwell's war room in which Howard Chapman and General Stillwell met for the first time. Bill Whalen, many of his staff and others were present, as was I and some of my superiors. And General Stillwell had found out that I had, on my own, started a program of re-forestation. Had a man named Febelcorn had worked for me as an arborist and as a botanist...
Conklin: (389) Can you spell his name, please?
Kern: (390) I can't spell it, 'cause I can't remember, but it was F-e-b-e-l-c-o-r-n, I believe.
Conklin: (392) Thank you.
Kern: (393) And Mr. Febelcorn was a civilian, but he was in love with the West and he knew the West and the trees and the biological flora and the fauna more than anyone I've ever met. And he came in my office one day and complained about the lack of... he said, "Everybody's planting conifers and we have pine trees and evergreens everywhere, but nobody's putting back the native oaks and the hardwoods and things that used to exist here." So, with my blessings, he went to Hunter Liggett and gathered huge numbers of five different types of oak trees and brought them back. And the Army had an old nursery up behind where I lived on Kobbe Avenue - that's K-o-b-b-e - still existing in the Presidio. And I lived in quarters 1314 there, and behind that was this old nursery area that had been abandoned years earlier. And I went to the mess halls and had them all the number ten cans, and between Carl and I we cut open the cans and we planted acorns and we raised 5,000 oak trees. And my young boys, as they were growing up, got to...their daily chore was to go up and water cans of oak trees. And to this day, some 25 to 35 years later, they're still talking about the chores they had of watering those trees. But we were able to give those trees to the University of California, to the Army's recreation at Lake Mendocino, and many, many other areas, where they were planted and hopefully, helped to restore. General Stillwell had heard this story, even though I had done it as an individual, and thought that I would be, therefore, a good candidate for liaison to the Park Service. And that's where we established our first liaison. At that meeting, Bill Whalen...at the conclusion of the meeting, Bill Whalen and I went off to discuss and to become more personally acquainted. And he agreed that...or he told me that his first and most urgent mission was to get out of his boss' office over at 450 Golden Gate, the Western Region, and he said, "I haven't got anything but a desk and a chair over there. I need to get away from there so that I can get this thing off the ground." And for that reason, I worked an arrangement with a colonel friend of mine that was over in Building 201 in Fort Mason, and he moved some of his people around and gave Bill a little corner office so that he could have...and we provided him with desks and chairs. In fact, the entire beginning of the Golden Gate Park [sic] came out of Army resources. And we just had him sort of as an extra tenant there; we provided him telephone service and all the rest. And gradually, as the Army tucked up its tail and reduced in size and moved - and eventually, I moved the entire Western Region office out of that building over to the Presidio - and that is still now the headquarters for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area.
Conklin: (460) Ah, we're going to run out of tape pretty soon, so I think I'll change it now.
[END OF SIDE ONE]
SIDE TWO
Conklin: (007) We've begun discussing my next question, under Bill Whalen, the first Superintendent - that's spelled W-h-a-l-e-n - what were your first projects and communications? You know, you've just told me that you helped set up their office, so what was the next step?
Kern: (011) Well, Bill, basically, had nothing to work with. He had a GSA-issued car, and that was about it. And he had no way to maintain it; we didn't have any Military Police - correction: We didn't have any National Park police, and so the Military Police covered initially until the park police contingent was sent in from Washington, D.C. And as the Park Service gradually took over buildings, they had no capability to maintain them; they had no shop of any significance, and the like. And the Army had a... in Pier One in Fort Mason, the Army had its own maintenance facility there that took care of facilities at Oakland Army Base, and also Fort Mason itself. And, at my suggestion, which was a little bit difference than anything that had been done before, I suggested rather than the Park Service creating a brand new maintenance shop and looking for a place and money to buy tools and all the rest, that they just sort of move in with us and share it. And it was the first time, probably, in history where an Army maintenance facility became also a National Park maintenance facility. Later, we were able to move the Army unit out, and leave behind 100 percent of the tools, the equipment, the shop, the keymaking equipment - everything - so that when the National Park Service started, they had everything in place to operate. Pier One also had a unique facility on the end of it. During the early part of the Korean War, the General Services Administration had leased to the Maritime Administration a portion of Pier One. And the terms of the lease were that they had the right to occupy and use the end of the Pier for the war and a reasonable period thereafter. And that was rather nebulous in real estate terms. And one of the transfers that I was able to affect...Bill - we transferred all the lower part of Fort Mason and the middle part; in fact, we transferred the entire of Fort Mason to the National Park Service with continued use and occupancy of the Army of the Officers Club, the NCO Club, a Teen Club, and 43 sets of quarters, portions of Building 201 in what is...was our former telephone exchange, which is now your National Police Headquarters. So, those buildings were still Army buildings, and the telephone exchange and the rest were still active; but as the land, theoretically, was transferred, except for this end of Pier One, because it belonged to a different Federal agency. And with...at my suggestion, Bill and I went over one day to the Maritime Administration, and we asked to speak to the senior administrator. And he couldn't understand why a Park Superintendent and an Army Engineer were there to visit with him. And I said, "We just came to give him official notice." And he said, "What kind of notice?" And I said, "I want to tell you that time is up." And he was dumbstruck, because we're now in the year 1973, early '73, and of course, the Vietnamese [sic] War had ended many years earlier, and they were very carefully ensconced in the end of Pier One and had no intention of leaving. And he immediately sent for his staff legal people, and they came in and I said to them that their lease from GSA was in effect transferred to the ownership of the National Park Service and the U.S. Army, and that we were there to give him official notice. And finally, he complained, he said they had nowhere else to go. And I said, "Well, you don't have to move. We just want to transfer the land, and you can become a tenant of the Park Service." And so, for the first time in history, we're using a Department of Defense transfer document - we transferred a Maritime Administration facility, brokered by the General Services Administration to the National Park Service, Department of the Interior. And to the best of my knowledge, they stayed there as long as they wanted to stay there; and I don't know if they're yet to this day, but I think it's unique that they finally came in and signed off on it, and Bill and I walked out of there with a smile on our face that we had affected a transfer in a rather unusual - but a certainly effective - way!
Conklin: (066) Great! Did you, as representative of the Department of the Army, have, or know of, any input or influence the Department of the Army had on the 1980 General Management Plan? How involved were you in that Plan?
Kern: (070) I attended all of the meetings, and if I could digress here for a moment to say when Bill...the creation of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area occurred during a Republican administration, but that the bill was originally authored and sponsored by the two local Congressmen - Phil Burton, a Democrat, and Bill Maillard, a Republican. Burton obviously the more aggressive and more active of the two, but the two of them together had co-authored the legislation. And it was during the period when President Nixon, looking for a way to gain public popularity, had come up with his Legacy of Parks. So, the initial Secretary of the Interior, whom I believe was Rogers Morton from...at the time, was obviously wanting to get credit for the Park and the like; and he got to appoint certain members to what became the Citizens Advisory Commission. The Sierra Club and other local... People for a Golden Gate National Recreation Area, with Ed Wayburn and Amy Meyer as co-chairs, were very influential in trying to stuff the council with people of their thinking and leaning, and were primarily on the Democratic side of the house. And Bill Whalen explained to me that he was in this dilemma that he couldn't appoint any one of them as Chair without objections from the other side. And I suggested to him that I knew of a person whom I had worked for, who was my boss as the District Engineer in San Francisco, who was a very brilliant, affable, common sense-type guy who knew how to conduct public meetings and the like. And I made arrangements for Bill Whalen to be introduced to Frank Boerger.
Conklin: (095) Spell that please.
Kern: (095) Boerger is B-o-e-r-g-e-r. And Frank Boerger was a colonel, graduated Number One in his class from the military academy; he had a brother that was a general in the Corps of Engineers, also. And Frank was probably one of the finest, most logical, solid citizens that I had ever known or met. And Bill later told me that the best thing that I ever did for the National Park Service was to get Frank Boerger. And Frank was brought in as an outsider who had no political involvement, was on neither side of the fence, and was able to take over as Chairman of the Advisory Commission and ran it for at least the next sixteen or seventeen years. And...until his death. And we sorely miss Frank, but he was a wonderful contribution to the Park, and I'm proud to have been able to nominate him.
Conklin: (106) In terms of the General Management Plan, did the Army have an agenda that they wanted to get through? By 1980, was the Army pretty much out of the land and it was a park planning effort at that point?
Kern: (109) In 1980, the Presidio had no intentions of closing. It was scheduled to be here forever. The Army had voluntarily given up the rifle range at Fort Barry, because every time we fired we had to close Councilman Road and other places, and people couldn't... the bird watchers and people couldn't get up there and visit, so we just said... and I also had another job as a Commander of Camp Parks over near Pleasanton. And so, the Army gradually moved their training facilities over to Camp Parks and they're still there to this day. But the... incidentally, Camp Parks was also surplus and excess to the Army's needs at one time, and I saw the need for it, and was able to arrange to have it withdrawn from excess. And so, now it's basically used to support the reservists and the National Guard in the Northern California Area. But, as it became apparent, when the Nike closed down and the rifle range and military training would interfere with Park users, the Army voluntarily vacated what I would call the Headlands area. The legislation proposing the GGNRA also included two areas of the Presidio that were to be irrevocably permitted for Park Service use, but to remain under Army ownership; and those were approximately 45 acres in the vicinity of Crissy Field and approximately 100 acres which is now the ocean side of the Presidio, which we refer to as Ocean Beach. The legislation really intended for 17 acres of firm land above the high tide lines and 23 acres of submerged lands and Crissy Field; and approximately 45 acres of fast land, the beach itself, and 55 acres of submerged lands. I looked at these and felt that they were inappropriate. And, with Bill Whalen's concurrence, we suggested that we give a different configuration, but one which that give the entire beach areas of both areas. And instead of 17 acres of fast lands, we transferred, or permitted, 44.7 acres, which was the original Crissy Field area and approximately 103 acres of fast lands which became everything west of the highway over in the Ocean Beach side, to the Park Service. Plus some 389 acres of submerged lands that the Army held title to from the State of California. So, in effect, they got much, much greater area, but it gave the Park Service those portions of the Presidio to use and to manage that really were applicable for visitation. At the same time, the remainder of the Presidio was an open post and remained open to the public and had great amount of visitation to buildings such as the one we're in now, the Army Museum, and many hiking trails. We had a Boy Scout camp, and many, many of the public came and walked through. And it was important to both the Park Service and to the Army that the Presidio remain open to the public so long as the military were not interfered with in the accomplishment of their missions.
Conklin: (158) What was your plan for the Lanhan - is that spelled L-a-n-h-a-n - Housing in the Headlands?
Kern: (159) Lanham, L-a-n-h-a-m. When the Congress approves money for military construction based on the author of the legislation, they name it, and the particular author of that was the Lanham Act, which created housing of... many years back. And so, that Lanham Act housing here, and also some at Hamilton Air Force Base, which has become turned over recently for civilian use. But we had quite a few sets of Lanham Act housing, and...substandard by today's rules, but certainly more than adequate; with hardwood floors and the like, equipped with stoves, refrigerators, and the like, over in the vicinity of Fort Barry, near the rifle range. And I made arrangements with the Army to transfer those buildings complete; since we no longer had a need for them, we offered to transfer them complete to the National Park Service so that their young rangers and their young techs and people that were coming... being employed, but had relatively low salaries would have a place to live, and the like. Regrettably, the Park Service did not want them, and asked us, and a contract was executed, in which they were demolished and hauled off. So, we had those buildings. Also, General Abrams had given me permission to transfer two of those fine brick quarters in the Loop in Fort Mason to the National Park Service as a gesture of courtesy to the Superintendent and the Assistant Superintendent, so that they might occupy the quarters directly across from their headquarters. Bill Whalen also had a bad experience in Yosemite when visitors and the public stuck their nose in the back of his house, and indicated that he personally didn't want to live in the Park, and gracefully declined the offer. And those houses are still occupied by the Army today.
Conklin: (188) Thank you. Alcatraz, as a former military post, you told me, required demilitarization before it could be transferred off the U.S. Army books. And what did this entail? And please include the Alcatraz flag pole story.
Kern: (193) Well, the...as a standard rule, whenever the military vacates a property, they... we go through a process known as "demilitarization" and basically, you remove any ammunition, you remove anything that would be hazardous to the general public, and you remove anything that is of a salvage or a reusable value to the Army itself, to be transferred to other post camps or stations. Alcatraz had long since ceased to be an Army post, but there was no way to get to it or back from it. And having previously served in the San Francisco District, I had access to some of their small survey boats and the like, and the first trip to Alcatraz on which I escorted Bill Whalen out there, he, for the first time, found the ruins that had been left there at the end of the Indian occupation several years previous. Contrary to what people may think, that was not a peaceful occupants and that the Indian themselves stripped much of the copper wire and many of the things out and were selling them in order to raise funds in order to subsist. In fact, on Thanksgiving one year while the Indians occupied the Island, there were so many boats from San Francisco that went out there as a token, a gesture of good will; people donated turkeys to the Indians on Alcatraz as sort of a reverse of the first Thanksgiving. In fact, the Indians had so many turkeys, they had a big game seeing who could shotput the turkeys the furthest from the Rock; they had so many more than they could eat, and they were actually throwing them off into the water. But, this preceded, of course, the Golden Gate National Recreation Area time. The public...the Army was also accused of taking water out and sustaining the Indians while they were there. There was an Army barge that did it, but it was from Oakland Army Base; but I was down at the San Francisco District and caught the flak from the press. But, one our first trip to Alcatraz with Bill Whalen and the rest, they were overwhelmed at the amount of debris and garbage and trash that was there, and there were all kinds of problems of getting to and from and getting the Island more active. So, my role, basically, was to help him get out there, get access to the facilities; and then I went around with him and helped determine which of the guard towers and water tanks and things were actually in hazardous conditions and had to be removed before the public safety could be assessed. And so, our original trip out there was basically a cleanup. And then, because of the popularity of Alcatraz and the public's desire to get out there, the Park Service started conducting tours, and they had rangers and other docents out there escorting people around. And Bill Whalen planned a large dedication, the transfer; and both Congressmen Maillard and Burton were both invited, along with several other Congressional representatives, everyone from the Sierra Club, and all of the other people who were anxious to... the mayors, and all of the local politicians - everybody was there. And Bill planned it to a gnat's eyelash. He had a multi-cultural honor guard; he had a bugler there; and he planned the whole thing up to the raising of the flags. And he had a representative of both the native Americans and the African Americans and others, and the Hispanics, and the caucasians - everyone was there represented in the honor guard and the like. And I casually looked around and said, "Bill, I don't quarrel with any of your plans, but where do you plan to raise the flag? There's no flagpole!" And he looked - and this was only two or three days before the actual ceremony, all of which had been planned in great detail - and there was a...just an aura of panic that existed. So, that night, with a group of some Army volunteers, we got a large lowboy tractor trailer from the Army motor pool and we made a clandestine trip up to an old, abandoned Nike site outside of Travis Airforce Base, and somehow or other a flagpole disappeared up there, and we got it back. And the next day, with a work boat, we got it out to Alcatraz and we hastily erected a flagpole there. And it even had the old brass ball sitting on the top. And I had taken that to my wife, who dutifully tried to polish it for six straight hours to make it shine. And Bill Whalen and I, we actually engraved in the top of that he and I had sat here on the date of the dedication, regrettably, during a storm. And the next couple of years, the ball was blown off the Island, so it's been lost; but to me, that was a typical example of raising a flag on a pole that didn't exist and we were able to cover it!
Conklin: (271) Thank you - I love that story! What inter-agency negotiations were required for the U.S. Park Police and local law enforcement? And in the telling of this, could you include the safe house story for the Anthony Harris case in the Headlands?
Kern: (276) Well, the National Park Police came in and I was fortunate to be present with them when we met with the San Francisco Police and also the Sheriff in Marin County. And along the way, since they had jurisdiction on both sides, the National Park Police ended up with four jurisdictions: they had their normal Park jurisdiction; they were deputized U.S. Marshals; they were deputized Marin County Sheriffs; and they were deputized San Francisco Police, so that because of the conflicting boundary lines and the uncertainty when somebody had violated a law - a speeding ticket, or a parking violation, or even a more serious crime - we had to be sure that the police who were involved in the arrest had authority. So, I worked coordination between the Military Police and the Park Police so that if someone were picked up and if it were a military member, the Military Police just took jurisdiction and the matter was settled through their system. Likewise, if it was a civilian and they were retained by the Military Police, we somehow summoned the Park Police there and we were able to make a joint arrest, and therefore make sure that the properties were protected. But this worked well. We also arranged to have the Park Police act as Deputy U.S. Sheriffs from Marin County and San Francisco so that they could cross the Bridge; and we were able to get Bridge permits for them which saved the Park Service a great deal of money out of a budget that was very, very small when they first started. Along the way, one day I was subpoenaed to the Park Service office on a rather hurry-up basis. And I was informed that - by Bill Whalen - that... or correction: It may have been Jerry Schoeber at the time - Bill Whalen's successor.
Conklin: (309) S-c-h-o-e-b-e-r, Schoeber?
Kern: (310) Schoeber, yes, that's correct.
Conklin: (310) I think so.
Kern: (311) So, they said that they had received a call from Washington, D.C., and I was asked to go to a certain telephone and await a call. And I did this, and it turned out it came from the U.S. Attorney General's Office and one of the high officials in that office. And they explained to me that San Francisco was suffering from a rash of crimes in which a rather - shall we say - rightwing group of Muslims, Black Muslims, had decided that they wanted to perpetrate the genocide of the white race, and they were committing some type - many types - of atrocious crimes and torturing people and killing women in front of their husbands and vice versa and the like. And they - the San Francisco Police Department - was going wild to try to suppress this Black Muslim group. These became known as the Zebra Murders. And the Zebra Murder cases were quite famous all over the state. One of the Zebra members - or one of the members of this group - was captured, and his name was Anthony Harris. And the San Francisco Police Department had no place to keep him. So, they went to the U.S. Marshal Service and asked them to provide protective service for him, since there was obviously a long list of people who wanted to snub him out before he could spill his guts to the police. The U.S. Marshal Service had nowhere to go; and through their channels of the Park Police, being deputized U.S. Marshals, came to them and asked them. And, of course, the Park Service was in its infancy and had little in the way of facilities, and that's why I was asked to act as the liaison between. And so we took Building 942 over in Fort Barry, which was a two-story house sitting in the midst of some larger buildings, off by itself. And the U.S. Army... with the permission of the Commanding General of Sixth Army of the time, I was able to outfit it with furniture and equipment, and this particular prisoner, Anthony Harris, was moved in there as a safe house. He later escaped from the house while the marshals were watching the color television set that I was also asked to provide. And he escaped from an upstairs window. And the Park Police didn't tell me about it for three days. And then they brought in some... they were apparently conducting a rather extensive investigation, and they came into my office and said that they had to talk to me, that something tragic had happened and they were sure that Anthony Harris had killed his common law wife and their infant child, and that he was on the loose. And they wanted me to help them go over and search the terrain. And I said, "Well, who else knows about this?" And, of course, no one was allowed to know, nobody in the Army. The Military Police only knew that there was a house over there that if I called for assistance or help they were to respond to my call. The Park Police, with the exception of the commander and one or two of his immediate subordinates, and the Superintendent of the Park were the only Park people that knew about this operation. So, they were very embarrassed that the marshals had lost their prisoner. That very week, the centerfold of the local newspaper had a story on the U.S. Marshals Service in which they had never lost a prisoner, and they had actually lost one three days earlier, but the word hadn't gotten out. But the U.S. Marshals were sure that Anthony Harris was loose in the area; and I asked them if they had coordinated with the Military Police or had discussed this. And of course, the word was mum, nobody was allowed to speak, and so, nothing. So, I went down to the Park - excuse me, to the Military Police - and asked to review their log, specifically of the night in which the event occurred. It turned out that Anthony Harris, as bad as he was, and later accused of some four or five murders, but he was a very loving parent for his infant son, and had no intentions of killing off his common law wife. They had actually walked from the safe house in Fort Barry to the tunnel leading between east and west Fort Baker. And just before they got to the tunnel, they had to stop to change the baby's diaper. And they stopped in front of one of the Army quarters over there, and under a pine tree, changed the baby's diaper, and he was observant enough to note the name and the quarters number. He later walked, and was attempting to walk through the tunnel, which was off limits to pedestrians. A Military Police patrol coming through the tunnel at the time found them, stopped them, put them in the Military Police vehicle and took them back to the other side and radioed back to the Military Police and said they had just picked up two males and a female, and wanted to know what to do with them. And the... Anthony Harris had given them the very plausible story that he was visiting the sergeant and his wife who lived in quarters number so-and-so, and that unfortunately, they had a terrible fight; and that they had gotten up and each gone off in their own car and left he and his wife and the infant there - he had no transportation, and the like. And the Military Police sergeant at the desk authorized him, authorized the patrol, to bring him back either to the Golden Gate Bridge bus stop, or bring him back to the Military Police Station, where they would call a taxi for him. He elected the latter; and so they loaded his suitcase, which he also was carrying with the baby's paraphernalia, and he and his common law wife into the Military Police vehicle, and brought 'em back to Military Police Station. Military policemen even helped them out and carried the suitcases and things for 'em. They had called a cab for him; they had ascertained that he had a hundred dollars in his pocket; and they had even logged in the address that he was heading to over in Oakland for the cab. And when I brought all this information back to a rather large group of red-faced U.S. Marshals and told them exactly where he had gone, and that his reason for breaking away was to take the child back for a visit with the pediatrician; and that they later were able to trace him to Los Angeles, and from there, two San Francisco policemen went down and re-arrested him in the streets of Los Angeles, and brought him back. The Park Service was again asked to provide an alternate safe house, and the San Francisco police this time were going to occupy Hill 88 and set up bunkers with machine guns and all the rest; and at my suggestion - and I'm sure, with the concurrence of the Park officials - we said not only "No" but "Hell, no!" and Anthony Harris was housed down at the San Francisco Police Academy's rifle range near Lake Merced, and we had nothing further to do with him.
Conklin: (457) In the two minutes that we have left, can you reflect on the successes and shortcomings of the transition from post to park, within the GGNRA, when the Park was first established? Is there anything that you wished had turned out differently?
Kern: (465) Well, first of all, I didn't personally want to see the Presidio ever close as a military post. And I think most of the Park people agreed with me that we needed to do was to convert it to a common use by the public. And I had tried very hard to transfer those portions of the Presidio that were more amenable to Park Service - along the beaches, and along the open space - and that we would continue to occupy the rest of the post, and it could be back-filled with administrative units, not to interfere with the public's use. The Army has since chosen to do otherwise, and I think they have dumped a whale on a minnow. They have dumped a rather large piece of land, very complicated, with many buildings, on a rather limited Park structure. And fortunately, recently, legislation has been passed to permit the creation of a foundation to be able to run it. Otherwise, the National Park Service could not handle the Presidio and keep it up. I was distressed to see the buildings and the grounds start to deteriorate rather dramatically, and many people came to me and said, "They'll just let it go to ruin - we should never have given up the Presidio, it was too beautiful." So, I feel that it will be saved; it's going to take time. The Presidio is obviously going to go down in quality before it comes back up in quality.
[END OF TAPE]
1906 Earthquake and Fire Camp at Ft Mason
Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 17966
"You see Fort Mason was a hell of a lot different then. That whole area where they have the Officers homes, and that now, that's been built. That was built since World War I. I was in World War I we used to use that whole area for our training course. Running and marching, you know." -John Hernan
John Hernan Oral History
This interview was conducted in 1976 between Park Rangers and John Hernan for the general collection at Golden Gate National Recreation Area. The interview was conducted at the informant’s home. John Hernan was 14 years old during the 1906 San Francisco Earthquake and Fire.
Hernan: 45th Street, Street, Avenue, and then on Street both houses are still standing out there. We had cottages, paid them $15 a month rent. Martini: Fantastic. Hernan: Now, I guess you couldn't get them for $50, $60 anymore. Martini: No, it's more like about $120. Hernan: My dad had gone into business. I was born in '91 (1891) so I'm going on 85 years old. We moved from there because we outgrew the place the folks had, moved on to Sacramento. They were there and my dad started a little one-man shop on Commercial Street near Sansome. And as he plugged and plugged we got the a lot further. We were located at Sacramento near Montgomery, or near Sansome, right across from where the Federal Reserve is now. And that's where we burned out at 11:00 o'clock the first morning. It was 1906. I was a boy then, only about 14. And that's when I got mixed in, we had to find something. We opened a stand on the street at California and Montgomery, no, California and Sansome where the Bank of California is now. We opened it on the street and I stood there and our own customers if needed. Then we and went and searched for the safes in the ruins to see and then get them out to open them up to see if everything was all right. And I stood there as a boy taking the orders from my dad. Martini: Didn't they have trouble with the safes after the fire killed them in too quick- Hernan: Oh, sure. You never want to open a safe up while its still warm because it might be a little warmer inside. If you open it up, it'll just explode into fire. And we had some, but everybody was so anxious. Open the safe, open the safe, open the safe. Then, you had men running around the street with hats on with a sign on "expert safe opening", probably never saw a safe in his life. But, we'd been in it then and my dad start a business 1889, yeah, 1889. And around in this area. You never had to worry much about burglary or [inaudible due to tape distortion] I’m gonna be 85 pretty soon. Martini: You must remember quite a bit about the World's Fair they held here in 1915. Hernan: Yes sir, we had an exhibit at the World's fair in 1915. The World's Fair was right out this way. Now we're up on Rincon Hill. Let's see, Nob Hill over there, no this one is... Russian. When I was then three years old, my folks had moved and I lived right over here on Broadway and Jones. That house isn't there anymore where we lived, it's was a set of flats but that burned at the time of the fire and from there then we finally moved and got out into the mission. You see, you gotta figure that all your downtown was mostly down in this area. In this flat around here. Now all these piers and all that did not exist at that time that we had. They're hardly used today anymore, they're just standing there. Only a couple of them used. And down here, a lot to this way and below here, let's just go out now, where are we now? Jones, see here’s Russian Hill, We're right up in this area, now you see this white? That's the area that we're in. That means that this plot was not burnt. Martini: It was just missed. Hernan: And Telegraph Hill wasn’t burned. But there wasn't much on Telegraph here, there wasn't too much on here, only Russian Hill was saved, due to this being a big barren hill in the first place and no one around the hill. Just like it went around Telegraph Hill. This was called East Bay. This was the end of the fire in this area here and the Telegraph Hill area and where we're sitting was still here. It wasn't burnt and Russian Hill that didn't burn. The fire didn't come up because people didn't build on the hills. You didn't have hills that were built like they are today with the streets and everything going through. Most of San Francisco in the early days all went out this way, and this was out into the mission area. And none of the mission area... and the main thing is people always talk about the earthquake. Well that was a hell of a strong earthquake. And there were creeks coming from there down this way and it came down through the mission just to the point like this and naturally the ground was not solid under this construction because that's where the water kept running under so that collapsed. Martini: Probably still like that today. Hernan: It's still like that today but a lot of it has been... They've done a lot of pile driving to support that construction. The other creek that came down came right down at the end of the post office, the seventh and mission. The only damage the post office has was just the corner of seventh and mission, the buildings here and here around they have all the metal, wood, and granite. Just on that corner that collapsed. It was only about that high. But from there it went down and across and on to Mission Street and Holland Street. Now if you go down Holland Street from 7th Street, 8th street, down to 6th street a lot of those buildings today, when you walk in, the street is up here but you gotta walk down. They used to be on the level. Now that whole area sunk because that was all filled in. And the buildings sunk and then the city afterwards brought the street levels up. But the houses, I mean there were small factories there, are still in the location they were when they sank to and they're still being used. Martini: Yeah, I work over there at Fort Mason, I know you were there earlier, was there any damage at Fort Mason? Hernan: No that building that you're in, that was the office building. That’s the furthest one down at Fort Mason? You see Fort Mason was a hell of a lot different then. That whole area where they have the Officers homes, and that now, that's been built. That was built since World War I. I was in World War I we used to use that whole area for our training course. Running and marching, you know. Yeah that was where you just put parade gravel and we'd just empty lots and they'd just even them off a little bit so we could use that. The rest of our training we used to do down here on the water front. We had to run on cobble stones in those days. Martini: Did you live on the post? Hernan: Hm? Martini: Did you live at Fort Mason? Hernan: They didn't have quarters for us to live. Martini: You're kidding. Hernan: No. And they didn't have quarters to feed. Though they tried to get local boys in there to handle. That was a medical depot exchange. (Sirens heard in the background) It supplied all the camps that were opened up in this area. To supply medical supplies and that's where we started, that where I had enlisted. Well… I had enlisted before that but then my uncle told me about this and I went down there to see him and what Major Stairs was looking for was people having experience with business, enough to start and handle the depot. Which we finally opened and in fact the building is still standing down at the end of Bay Street down here. That's what we finally turned into the warehouse and I had charge of that warehouse. I was secretary to the Captain. That's why I never left here. Everybody else that I helped to train after that, they left, they went like to Vladivostok Camp Freemont which is now Menlo Park down there, that was the big camp which was created for the M That's where the draftees from this area all went and from there they were shipped out. And from here a lot of them were shipped over to Florida, from Florida over to England, and then into France, and then finally into what is now West Germany. Martini: You said some of the guys were sent to Vladivostok Hernan: Well you see there's still those two docks down... That's where the Sheridan and the Sherman transports used to leave. They were capable of handling about 700 men and they put 1,400 on them. And when the boys finally came back and told me, "Jesus were you lucky not to go over there. That was just Hell." They were crapping on the decks and everything else because there wasn't enough toilets anywhere they could get, When you had to put 1,400 boys on a ship that was total was supposed to be 700, well that's where they used to dock and that's where the transport all used to dock, that was the government property down in there. Now it's hardly used, I don't know whether they're used at all now. Martini: Yes, it now belongs to the National Park System. It's a park land it’s opened to the public : Now you take everything from there out and all the properties I said where the Word's Fair was, which went from Chesham Street down to the Bay. And from Van Ness out to Rodrick except some that what was in what is now Crissy Field out there, that's where the had a lot of those buildings, the old buildings that they use as a stable because Crissy Field itself was a horse race track. That's during the World's Fair. While the whole district then was so different than what we're used to, we had a couple of trucks here, and we usually have to load the trucks and go down town to have lunch. Then at night time we could come home. Half the time I was still living out there off of Second Avenue in the Richmond District and I got married while I was in the army. My wife's folks lived over here on Clay and Clyde, and that's where she stayed and that's where I went home at night. Martini: You commuted to the army each day? You commuted to Fort Mason to go to the army? Hernan: Well, you had to go on the street car, they didn't give you transportation when you were discharged, and at lunch time we used to all pile in trucks and go downstairs or downtown to a restaurant on Farrell Street to have our lunch because they had no facilities. And there was no hospital there. My son was born when I was in the army. He's now, what, 60 something years old, and his three children, they're my grandchildren and I'll never forget this. I picked her up, the army picked her up at Clay Street where we were living, we'd just had that flu epidemic, sent an ambulance, took her out to Letterman Hospital. Then the doctor who was a local doctor here, must've enlisted into the Army, he had charge of Letterman, he was a good man, and the whole cost was $17 to be there, I had to pay the government for the laundry they needed. But these big buildings across from out there, Letterman consisted only of the small wood buildings that still stand beyond. Letterman's Hospital was most of those wood buildings in those days. This has all been built since. In fact one of them was recently completed as you probably know about the big addition there. Then World War II my son was in the Navy and I used to devote a lot of time to what was then the YMCA across from Lebanon. It isn't any more, I don't know, I think the government runs it now. Martini: I think it's just vacant. It's a big white building? Hernan: Well we used to- No, a little wood building. Across the road from Lebanon. The old wood buildings at Lebanon. And beyond that now is a parking area before you get to the parade grounds. But we had spots in there and the YMCA, we used to put on shows for the boys that were in love [inaudible] The ramp that's in front, that used to be stairs, we changed that so they could roll wheelchairs up, and I served out there for a couple years during World War II and with the YMCA and since then it's been given over I think it belongs to Lebanon now I'm now sure. And what they use it for I don't know. But we had everything in there. Loads of boys coming back who were unwell we had places where they could work with their paint, you know? And study... Martini: Was the Presidio a lot more barren then than it is now? Hernan: Presidio to a degree was more barren, but generally not too much different than it is now, except that [inaudible] more and it's in better shape than it used to be. Now they're asking about those gun emplacements. That have been placed if we knew anybody who used those gun emplacements. Now my recollection, as far back as I know, those guns all stayed from when Spain owned this place. All those forts going around the front. Now as a youngster, my grandparents had a place in Baker & Lombard and I used to go there, my uncle used to take me, he'd say "C'mon," and we'd go down to the waterfront. We'd go crab fishing down there. Amongst the rocks. Fort Mason was there at that time, but there wasn't the road way or anything more like down to Fort Mason. What's left were a whole lot more of these gun placements there when I was a boy. But I always was told, I always had the impression that was when Spain had this and they had put those gun placements in there. I don't know if any of those guns have ever been shot [inaudible due to distortion] sure they were there to help protect any invasions, and from where we were down here we have a net across the golden gate to stop any subs from coming in which had to be lifted all the time when one of our own ships were coming through, but I don't remember any of these guns ever being shot in either World War I or War II. Martini: Nobody ever attacked. Hernan: No, we were close sometimes to some of the attacks, but nobody I don't think ever tried to get in, because we had that and we have what is now what Cronkite? Over there? That wasn't always a Fort, that was a Fort put in by Americans and then what qualifications, we used to go up the hills there in World War II to entertain the boys when we were taking a troop and going up, take some entertainment up there, and they were built cheaply for World War II. Those up in the Marin Hills But as far back as I can remember, there was no Crissy Field or anything down below in there. The guns go around as you drive, that was my impression from the time I'm a little boy that those were all built by the Spanish when they owned and controlled California. Now I can't vouch for that, but they were there when I was a boy. Martini: There were never any cannons near those ones you said that never fired, you don't remember any at Fort Mason do you? Hernan: Those were the cannons used to shoot the round balls. Martini: Right. The Americans brought some too, they built their own- Hernan: There's a lot of those have been taken out in recent years, you know. Martini: They've melted down for scrap, a lot of them. Hernan: A lot of those have been taken out since the Golden Gate Bridge has been built and had to make more to surround, and after Crissy Field was built, which is partially used, the rest of it like the old Spanish building that's up at the end of the parade ground which is now the offices club, that was there. And those buildings around the parade grounds were there. Because I got my issue of clothing out there. Two suits, two pair of shoes, and one suit I couldn't wear, it was too tight and the other one was so big it hung on like a rag. Those were terrible times because it'd been so long since we'd really been outside of the Spanish-American conflict which we were no more prepared for a good war at that time like we had to get into as when that World War I started which we never expected to be in. We should never have been in it as far as I'm concerned. It was nothing very good in it. Martini: You never did get sent overseas, did you? Hernan: Beg your pardon? Martini: You never did get sent overseas, did you? Hernan: No, I stayed right here. The Major kept me here. We used to enlist 60 at a time. Just to train to keep sending them off to these new... and I don't know, somehow he seemed to like me, like my work, and he didn't send me out. And then I was practically in charge of taking the inventory of supplies the business end of it, and I became the Captain's secretary, I was still a sergeant first class, and I used to do all the work down at the warehouse here for the Captain, all his paperwork would come in, he'd dump it on my desk, and I'd have to investigate it, write out the answers, sign it, and he'd send it back up to Fort Mason. So I never left here. I stayed right here in San Francisco. Martini: This must've been pretty good duty being stationed in San Francisco, rather than- sent to hell and gone. Hernan: Oh, yeah. [Inaudible] But a lot of the boys that were trained down here at Mason they went across, and those days you didn’t fly, they went on the Sheridan, and the Sheridan and the Sherman were the two transports they used to come in. Martini: Did they actually draft them and train them right at Fort Mason, teach them how to fire the rifle and everything? Hernan: No, we never trained them there with the rifle, because we were not going to be where the use of the rifle was going to be necessary, we were always going to be in the supply depot of any camp that they opened. Martini: Uh-huh. So- Hernan: Anywhere in the United States they opened a camp they had to have a medical depot connected with a temporary hospital and all the supplies for the western United States came through at our warehouse and then we always had to keep an inventory of that and report and get new supplies in and we had to pack them here and ship them out to all the port on the West. Martini: You must've been handling an awful lot of stuff. Hernan: Oh we did. And there wasn't time. When they said, "Inventory," they wanted the inventory... we had a three story brick garage building, it's still standing down there, full. And as I say I had first to third floor after I was in for a while and then I had the whole building under my control, and I'd had business experience, and that's what the Major wanted and they said I was doing a good job. I surprised them first day, there was 60 of us and they took 59 away and I stood there and didn't go. So that's why I never got out of here because they kept me here all the time to take charge of this warehouse. It was alright by me. Martini: Now where did you say the warehouse was, you say it's on Bay Street...? Hernan: Right down on Bay Street, Bay Street, just as far as you go down, there's a red brick building right there before you get to the waterfront. I think the cross-street is either Sansome or... Because it's a private warehouse now, it's not government anymore. They just took it that time, I don't know it's somebody's, and rigged it so a little remodeling and used it for the whole medical supply for all the West. Martini: As I understand it the Army out there at the Fort they have warehouses all up and down Embarcadero it wasn't all located nice within the fort boundaries. Hernan: I don't ever remember any warehouses along the waterfront out by the Presidio Martini: Wasn't the building, the Montana building, wasn't that used by the Army too? Hernan: That's correct. Everything that was built there, the Montana warehouses and these down there now, at the end of Fisherman’s Wharf they were all used by the Army but not for our department. Martini: Yeah, everybody was separate then. Hernan: We had all our department down in this other big building down there. Martini: You were using horses at that time to transport everything? Or did you have trucks? Hernan: Mostly was motorcycles. For us. They had a motorcycle any time it was a major up here wanted me the motorcycle would come down and the side car, they'd pick me up and bring me out to Fort Mason so I could talk to the Major or the Captain and get any different change in orders from that. I really didn't have one of the dirty jobs in the army, I had a pretty good job in the army. Thank god I'd worked some before, because I started work right at the time of the fire, then I went back to school, after they opened it up, Polytechnic High, opened up which is now the University Hospital up on Parnassus used to be the affiliated college which was also part of UC. They gave us one room when 50 of us went back to school up there and they didn't of course have any shops, so we only had half-day school. Martini: Is that kind of the equivalent of a GI Bill? Hernan: No but that was a municipal, it was under the state because they were all state buildings, Polytechnic High was down at Bush and Stockton As I said they burnt down just about the same time as we burnt down over here on Clay street near Sansome. This is, just to give you an idea... [Distorted] In that time they gave you an opportunity to get your insurance in cash over a certain period, or you could take it in stock in the company, or you could take it and divide it half and half, you had different options. Cause eventually, jeez they were hurt, fairly young company at that time. So that time we didn't have too much there, we took stock, my dad did, for the value of his insurance, a pretty big bet then he never wanted to cash it in, and I still own it. Martini: A pretty smart move, it's really gone up. Hernan: That worked out alright. Now you see, if you look at this picture for instance, now this is from Russian Hill. And there's your ferry building. Now this is, looking at it, from before the fire. Martini: You can hardly even see the ferry building anymore. Hernan: No, you can't, but you can see the ferry building wasn’t bothered because the fire started along in here where the SP buildings are now. Obviously SP they built that, they didn't have any buildings down there at that time. All the stuff down here most of it was shacks. Now this is very little of this that is left. Some of this further over here they were buildings that were gutted and rebuilt. Now this is also looking from south of Market, south of the slot and this was the old type construction down there, but this was the old city hall which was destroyed. Next to the old was the big auditorium Mechanic’s Pavilion which was where the city hall is now coming over where the auditorium is. That auditorium was the Mechanic’s Pavilion where they used to have show’s and that in the building and big meetings, just a great big wood building. That burnt down but just to show you how they didn't expect the fire to go that was turned into a hospital. Martini: Brother!? Hernan: And they took people from the downtown area in here and moved them out and made a hospital out of it, just put cots in there, and then they apparently during the second day of the fire they had to move everybody out and get them placed where they could. Martini: They had no idea it was going to get as far out of hand as it did. Hernan: No. We knew we had an earthquake, but where we were we couldn't see downtown except we could see a little smoke but nobody realized in the beginning what it was gonna be. As I say the fire chief he lived on Bush Street, and next to it as a theater, the Old California Theater, and in the earthquake the chimney fell from building next door, broken, fell through the roof of his building and killed him in bed. He didn't even know we had a fire. Martini: You always hear all these stories about the National Guard and soldiers shooting people in the street- Hernan: That is correct. Well, you see, we had government military control, that's what it was, a great big ruin. There were strict orders that, nobody was to leave the street. Nobody was to enter any place where there were ruins. Because there was nothing but block after block after block of ruins. Now if the militia was going around and you were... I saw this for myself, if you were out in the ruins and snuffing around, they'd just call you out on the sidewalk and line you up and if you had anything in our pocket that didn't belong to you that you might've picked up, they shot you. There was no questions asked.
Night Embarkation
Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 32475
"why don't you get a job at Fort Mason because they are looking for people, and I just say, "I don't have any experience." I taught myself how to type and that's about the only thing I could do. I was a mediocre student I didn't graduate with any honors or anything like that. I said, "Well, I don't know anything," and she said to me, I don't know who she was, some girl that I knew. She says go to Fort Mason, go to the personnel department, and tell him what experience you've had." -Amelia Schmidt
Amelia Schmidt
Amelia Schmidt discusses working at Fort Mason during World War Two
Conklin: [silence] What changed 1997? My name is Sarah Conklin. I'm interviewing Amelia Schmidt. We're at her residence in San Francisco 1894, 41st Avenue. We're going to be talking about the history of her working at Fort Mason. To start the tape off, we'd like to get a little history from you, Amelia. Where were you born?
Amelia Schmidt: In San Francisco on Fifth Avenue, but affiliated colleges.
Conklin: When were you born?
Amelia: 1913. April, 5th.
Conklin: Who were your parents?
Amelia: My father was Victor Schmidt. My mother was, want her maiden name? Lilly Schwab and she was born in Minnesota.
Conklin: Schwab with sc?
Amelia: S-C-H-W-A-B.
Conklin: Were you raised by your parents?
Amelia: my father died in 1919, after World War I of that terrible flu that they had an influenza which left my mother, a widow, from the farms in Minnesota in the big city of San Francisco, all alone, a widow. She was like me, she wasn't gregarious and outgoing. There she was with four children. I don't know anything about welfare, but I'm quite sure she didn't get any because she had to go out and do housework and cooking, the only thing that she knew which left me home more or less, doing the housework and shelling peas and stuff like that though we don't do it anymore. You are looking at her.
Conklin: Do you have a clock?
Amelia: Yes.
Conklin: You have four siblings or three siblings? [crosstalk]
Amelia: Three. Two older brothers and one younger sister.
Conklin: Where did you go to school and what was the highest grade you've ever got?
Amelia: I went to Jefferson School here in the city, and then public schools. I will get a [unintelligible 00:02:23]. I went to several schools because my mother moved around. We lived on 17th Avenue. When my father died, that was in 1919. Then we lived there for a while and then her father left her a little money when he died. She bought a little house in the Richmond District. That's where she, [laughs] where she brought us kids, more or less. Then I went to Girls' High School and I graduated.
Conklin: Was that the formal name of the school, the Girls' High School?
Amelia: Yes. It was on the Stoner Street and Scott. Everything has changed so much. I go by there, I can't believe it. That was just a couple of blocks away from Fillmore Street, which was more or less black but it was wonderful. All the different like the Filipinos had their neighborhood. The Chinese had Chinatown naturally. The Italians were up on the hill there and out here was sand dunes. Nobody wanted to live out here for heaven's sakes. It really was just off sand more or less.
Conklin: Did you graduate from Girls' High School?
Amelia: I graduated from Girls' High School in 1931.
Conklin: Did you go further than that?
Amelia: Well, at that particular time where was I going to go? There was no possibility of ever going to any kind of school or anything like that. I had to stay home and keep house while my mother was working. When was it on the- when they started drafting young men, and they were thinking of taking my brother, my older brother who was not married. I don't know how old he was at that time. He had a temporary job off. Talk about things. They have rebuilt this both Beach Chalet and mint up there on the hill there. All of that was built by WPA labor. The men made I don't know maybe about $20 a week or something which was sent home to their parents, you know that?
Conklin: When did you start working for the army?
Amelia: Well, before I started to work for the army, I got a temporary job when they were taking the men off and sending them overseas, I got a temporary job up at the Legion of Honor. Now, this was very interesting as far as I'm concerned, and looking back because I got a job at the reception desk. At that particular time, no one could go into the building of the museum which was left by the Spreckels family. You couldn't go into the building with a camera because you could not take any pictures of any of those famous paintings unless you had particular permission from the city. Actually, I was sitting at the front desk and with the clicker counting how many people came in there and checking their cameras.
I was, I was amazed and interested with all the Asian people that were coming in with beautiful cameras. Never thought about anything until the war started and I thought that was damn japs, you'll have to excuse my language, but that's the way it was. They were taking pictures of all coastal installations and all the Coast. Who knew anything about that until they bombed Pearl Harbor? They knew where they were going.
Conklin: Interesting.
Amelia: That to me, it was very interesting because they had these all beautiful cameras, and actually I was sitting here looking at the oh, beautiful things and so forth and so on while they were going around in the building. The only reason they went there, you know the Legion of Honor it sits up there on a promontory, probably, or whatever, and wonderful views of the bay and the ocean and across the bay.
Conklin: Was it from that job that [crosstalk]-
Amelia: Across the ocean.
Conklin: -you started to work for the army?
Amelia: Oh, that's when they were releasing the men to go overseas and so forth, then I got a job up there because they needed some lady to take care of the ladies' restroom.
Conklin: At?
Amelia: At the Legion of Honor.
Conklin: Then after that, you left the Legion, [crosstalk] instead of that started working for the army?
Amelia: I left the Legion of Honor because a friend of mine told me why don't you get a job at Fort Mason because they are looking for people, and I just say, "I don't have any experience." I taught myself how to type and that's about the only thing I could do. I was a mediocre student I didn't graduate with any honors or anything like that. I said, "Well, I don't know anything," and she said to me, I don't know who she was, some girl that I knew. She says go to Fort Mason, go to the personnel department, and tell him what experience you've had.
Conklin: That's exactly what you did?
Amelia: That's exactly what I did. I went to Fort Mason, what experience did I have? I worked for a dentist, I worked here in there and I worked up at the Legion of Honor. The major, I forgot what his name was, he says, "Oh, you're interested in art and blah, blah." He thought, well, I was pretty good. I was all right. I was young and vigorous. He put me into dental clinic. He assigned me in the Fort Mason dispensary. There was a big building up there.
Conklin: Now, what year was this?
Amelia: That was in the C43. I started in 1943.
Conklin: Do you remember how much you made?
Amelia: Well, golly, almost nothing but it was [unintelligible 00:08:35]. That's another thing you can't believe nowadays. When I'm retired I got this little booklet when I retired after 36 years. I retired and I got $90 a month.
Conklin: That's retirement?
Amelia: Retirement.
Conklin: That was what year?
Amelia: That was an annuity, that's not social security or anything. That was in 1978. That's when I retired. Can you imagine that? Now I get a little over $1,000.
Conklin: That's great.
Amelia: Cost of living increase but then of course, you could get about a quart of milk for 10 cents. Now you have to pay $2 for a quart of milk. [chuckles]
Conklin: After the depression and the war began, you were suddenly thrust into a frenetic work world, how did you cope with the increased demands physically and mentally? How did you actually become comfortable with the job?
Amelia: I had to take a physical examination and medical and, what do you call these? When they give you an examination, regular examination, how much you know?
Conklin: A test.
Amelia: Yes. They weren't easy. What my previous experience which was nothing, it was clerical work more or less and so they thought that I'd be fine in the dental clinic doing their admissions and so forth because it was really a crazy thing. There was as I mentioned before that these men would come through in long lines, boom, boom, boom, and have their examinations. As long as you were warm, you were in the Army. [laughs]. It was terrible but that's the way it was. I did the paperwork for it was. So that--
Conklin: Is there something that you did during the day that helped you make it through the day or you were young and strong and it wasn't a challenge? Was it a challenge?
Amelia: Not particularly because, yes it was because I was not used to working with all sorts of people. The dispensary when actually was run by Army Medical Personnel. There was the man that was in charge, a Feinstein, I don't remember, and Major Cornelia, regular Army man. He was in charge of the dental clinic and the people that were in charge were officers. The people that worked under them were all civilians. Mostly female civilians, because there's no such a thing as a male because they were all in the service.
Conklin: What was the work environment like? How was the office set up? What was the feeling in the office?
Amelia: It was business that's all. There was no fooling around. We could have a 10-minute coffee break and there was a hygienist there and the dental assistant, and I was the clerk. There was another assistant, there were four men, busy. There were four girls in there and myself, I was doing the clerical work at the desk, and making the records out for the men that were coming in and going out, and as the dentist would say what they needed, which in those days you could have a full mouth of cavities or something, and they'd fix them up in a hurry and that was it, they had that record. We could go out, we worked from 8:00 until 12:00. During that time we had a 10-minute coffee break.
Conklin: Okay. Pardon?
Amelia: Should I tell you this? I told you this before, 10-minute coffee break. The PX was at was about almost five minutes from the dispensary. Dispensary was up on the hill. We had to walk all the way down to the-- I had to walk, I didn't know anybody because we couldn't go out in pairs, we could only go out one at a time.[laughs] I went down to the PX and the coffee was hot. I would have him put a scoop of ice cream in it to cool it off so that I could drink it in a hurry and get back within 10 minutes because Major Cornelia was listening into his watch.
Conklin: Sounds like it was--
Amelia: Right there, no fun, no business.
Conklin: Was it an eight-hour day?
Amelia: Oh yes. Eight hours.
Conklin: Did you ever have to work extra overtime?
Amelia: I don't remember that. We weren't clock watchers in those times, because there was an entirely different attitude than there is today. Everybody was concerned with the war effort. Everybody was doing their best no matter what it was, I didn't care because I couldn't drink my coffee in 10 minutes. I knew that that's all that they could spare me. They had to have to get me back to my desk. That's the way we all were.
Conklin: That makes it a little different.
Amelia: There was no he and She-ing around because the officers had their families, they lived in the-- I don't know where they lived, but they lived on the post there, with their families. There was no, like I said no he and She-ing, because the guys were put on the ship right now.
Conklin: Did they actually fill everybody, all their cavities before they left for the war?
Amelia: You had to have a good set of teeth. I shouldn't say this, but I remember they had-- I don't know where the men lived, but they would come from here and there. I didn't know anything too much about them because I didn't get a chance to talk to anybody. I keep their records, Joe Blow and what's your serial number and what's your race? There were five races then, there was Caucasian, Negro whatever, they're brown, like the Filipinos and so forth and the Asians and the Red Indians, really Indians. Now, my God, you have a change of something and you're an entirely different race.
Conklin: Did you have a lot of Indians, American Indians that were in the war?
Amelia: I don't remember, but they came from everywhere. They came from the hills and they never had a pair of shoes on before. I don't know where they recruited them, but they got them under the bushes and the hills and everywhere, and they brought all these people in and how they got here, but they got them all. There was no fooling around. There was a very serious business, they got all these young men.
Conklin: I've heard stories of women, clerical, and some medical personnel at Fort Mason who were actively pursuing handsome, well-educated, moneyed men that looked like they would make appealing marriage candidates. Have you heard any stories like this?
Amelia: Certainly not during the war, no. Because they were all transients, they came here today and they were out the next day.
Conklin: So there wasn't a great group of them just sitting around for days.
Amelia: Oh. Like maybe the officers, I didn't know because I was not, I didn't--
Conklin: Okay.
Amelia: We didn't have television and the radio and all of that stuff there. It was in the days of [unintelligible 00:16:19]. One girl would fall in love with the man forever, [laughter]. That was it but later on there was a lot going on. When the men were coming back and forth with their different brides and stuff.
Conklin: What interaction did your female co-workers have with the Italian prisoners of war held at Fort Mason? You and I discussed that a little bit.
Amelia: Well, like I said, I knew they were there because when I was going from the dispensary up on top of the hill down to the PX, I could see these guys, it would say prisoner on their T-shirts or whatever they were wearing in those days. They were doing the gardening, and they were actually prisoners of war. They were Italian prisoners, because at that time, Italy was affiliated with Germany, wasn't it? I remember.
Conklin: Would the women that you worked with then go out with these men later?
Amelia: No, no, no, no, because the men were confined to the post. It was just like being in jail, they knew where you were every minute.
Conklin: Okay. So there wasn't--
Amelia: Not you, but the men.
Conklin: There wasn't any fraternization then?
Amelia: No, not at that time. Later on, when the things cooled down and the men were coming back to the post because those people would stay, they were like prisoners. They were glad they were here. They were damn glad they were here. They were put off in the quarters where the guys would live. The men would live in certain barracks, and that was it. Period. Later on in the war, they had the Women's Auxiliary Army Corps, that was the WAAC. Later on, they decided that they better make it WAX. It was an official Women's Army Corps. They went to, I don't know where it was, but they started coming in.
Conklin: Did some of you, the women you worked with, go down and have coffee with the Italian prisoners?
Amelia: We didn't have time for any of that, no.
Conklin: You said later.
Amelia: No fraternization at all. Later maybe, I guess. I don't know.
Conklin: Okay. What about the-- Were there German? I thought you mentioned German prisoners of war.
Amelia: I'm not awfully sure, but I don't remember too much about the war. I don't think we brought many prisoners of war over this.
Conklin: Okay, so you don't remember German prisoners of war?
Amelia: I do know, because my father's name was Schmidt. He came from Austria and met my mother over here. Because of that, at that fact, that was the time that they were interning the Japanese people. A lot of people don't realize it, but they did the same thing with the Germans. Anybody that had anything to do with Germany and they came to my mother's house a couple of times. This was on Ancestry and they inquired about us because our name was Schmidt. Now nobody ever says anything about that, but they were people that lost their jobs here. Girls that I got to know later on and they were interned, they were moved in towards Colorado were off of the coast here.
Conklin: Because of their German surnames.
Amelia: Did you know that?
Conklin: No, I didn't.
Amelia: Yes, Germany suffered. I wasn't German, but I had a German name and Austria, Hitler marched right into Austria and took that over so that was part of German, then, what do you call it?
Conklin: Who were the people that came to talk to your mother.
Amelia: Some men, they came there very officially. Secret Service men. My mother was working, so I talked to them.
Conklin: The US Secret Service came? What were their questions?
Amelia: All. They wanted to know how long I lived here. Where was I born, where was my father? Anything that might incriminate me or associate me with anything German, just because of my name. I said, "Look, I was born here." Now I'm more brash, I'd say, "Get the hell out of here. I don't want to talk to you," but then, oh, no, I answered every question. Not only that but even after I worked at Fort Mason, it was the same thing with my name Schmidt, associated with Germany.
Conklin: Let's talk about the various medical clinics in which you worked. Let's discuss them one at a time and maybe talk about what the feeling was in these different offices and what some of your jobs were. Let's start with the medical clinic.
Amelia: The whole dispensary was medical. As they came in, I didn't even know what a dispensary was. Did you know what a dispensary or infirmary was?
Conklin: Yes. [laughs]
Amelia: I never even knew what a dispensary was, but a dispensary is where they go give them a physical and find out whether you just got a runny nose or an allergy and so forth and so on. If you have something more serious, they would send you to Letterman Hospital. The dispensary, at that particular time, they gave all the young men, they gave them a physical, and they were pretty strict physicals. They gave you blood tests. In those days they didn't have syphilis, and I'd have--
Oh, this was later on. This was one of my later ones. At first, I was in a dental clinic, but they gave them pretty strict examinations, even dental examinations before they even accepted them. They went through the whole gamut and all the laboratory, every kind of a medical examination. These were the young men in the beginning.
Conklin: After you left the dental clinic, where did you go?
Amelia: I still worked in the dispensary, but then they needed-- Girls would be leaving or something, and then I worked at the front desk, at the reception desk. In those days you kept files and drawers and drawing walls of files. It's not like now you push a button and immediately everything comes up. Anyway, then I worked in the lady's examination.
Conklin: What things were they looking for women for during exams? What were the women checked for?
Amelia: This is the women that were coming in for jobs in their different offices on the post. They would just give them a regular physical like you would go to the-- They'd check your eyes and they'd look up your nose and down your throat and, I think give you an x-ray just to make sure that you were warm.
Conklin: Tell me something about the eye clinic.
Amelia: The eye clinic was right across the hall from the dental clinic. They would check your eyes, see how you were, and so forth and so on. They were really ophthalmologists, I didn't know much about them. They had business then and optician, not opticians. They wouldn't give you any glasses or not, but they would check your eyes and make sure because one of the things that they were particular about was colorblindness. Did you know that? When you were on a ship or something and there would be a signal or something coming in, they were still using these, what do you call them?
Conklin: [inaudible 00:24:08] lanterns.
Amelia: Yes. If you had even the slightest bit of colorblindness, you would be out. That sounds silly, doesn't it? That was one of the things I had to do when I was working in the men's thing. They'd have these funny little things with all these little dots on them. If you could see, normally you could see that there was a star in the middle, but if you couldn't see the yellow or the red, you couldn't see that.
Conklin: Then you would actually do these tests?
Amelia: No, that I would. I would ask them all the questions, and in those days there were syphilis and gonorrhea, and they would treat them with the Lord knows what. Before I'd even let them go see the doctor, I'd say, "You have to have your papers with you." Some of them had, it was just like a roll of toilet paper and they'd have all treatment that they had. I would have to contact the Department of Public Health if they didn't have it, and make sure, "Did Joe Blow ever have any treatment there, and if so, what for?" That would come back to the men's physical examination. I'd have to do the clerical work.
Conklin: It sounds like men would come to you, you'd be asking them for some papers or asking them questions?
Amelia: Checking their eyes to see if they could read.
Conklin: It sounds like those men would have to come back in a day or two, that you couldn't process them immediately.
Amelia: If there was nothing wrong with them, I would see that their blood, or if somebody came up from the laboratory and checked their blood to make sure that it was a Kahn test they had in those days to make sure that they didn't have any blood tests, anything or--
Conklin: Was it contest?
Amelia: K-A-H-N. In the olden days when guys would have gonorrhea and syphilis would get in their blood, I guess it was, I don't know much about it, but that was it.
[laughter]
Conklin: A contest?
Amelia: Not a contest. C-O-N-T-E-S-T. No, no. K-A-H-N, I guess it was the doctor's name.
Conklin: I got it.
Amelia: If there was anything, if it came back, plus and other things too. The food handlers and stuff, they didn't want anybody to be giving any of their health to somebody.
Conklin: How experienced were these doctors and nurses? Were they right out of medical school?
Amelia: They were real doctors, army doctors. All of them were army doctors. They were regular nurses that were, of course, I didn't have too much contact with them because the only time I was away from my desk was to go to the bathroom and maybe have later on, have a cup of coffee up at the-- They'd have coffee instead of going out to the PX, and somebody would have a pot of coffee going in the back room.
They even had an annex to the-- It's sad when you go up there now and see all these things. I went there once after it became Golden Gate, whatever, and it's so different. They had another room, a small building, which was more or less two or three rooms and so forth and so on, where if I was sick and I had a headache and I didn't feel good, instead of going home and wasting the day, they would give me something and they'd tell you go lie down. They would check you.
Then there were other ladies from other places on the post that weren't feeling well or vomiting or diarrhea. Instead of wasting the whole day or the whole week, they would come up there and they would lie down. I didn't go there very often, but I do know they had, what they called the annex, the dispensary annex.
Conklin: Were there any office jokes or pranks? How did you relieve the tension?
Amelia: We just did what we had to do. Now, this was in the beginning, now, afterwards, it was altogether different. When the men came back, that's another story.
Conklin: How were the men attired while they were being processed? What would they be wearing? These large lines of men?
Amelia: In the beginning, it shocked me because I- Catholic little girl, and I didn't know anything about naked men, but these were not naked, they were just in the hallway and there was just a long line waiting for the box office for a popular theater. There was a long string of men, and all they had on was shoes and an overcoat. As they went from one place to the other, of course when they went to the dental things, there was nothing into the laboratory. When they meant to have a physical examination, you didn't have that business of waiting to be undressed or anything like you did later on.
Conklin: It was just a long line of men in raincoats?
Amelia: It was terrible. In the beginning, it was really fierce.
Conklin: Did they find that demeaning or were they all?
Amelia: No. No, no, no. Laughing. It was a usual thing, we were--
Conklin: Were they flirtatious with you?
Amelia: Oh, God no. They didn't have time for that. I guess they were more embarrassed than anything else. I was so busy writing up their charts and saying what their race was and so forth and their age.
Conklin: What was the racial mix of the people you worked with? The doctors and other civilians.
Amelia: Not the men, they were all white. Different religions. My boss was Jewish and that's about all I remembered. There were several other Jewish people and I thought, "Oh, they're all cliquey. They all stick together." [chuckles] The boss has got a good job in the dispensary so to keep from going overseas, he had his buddies for his relatives, which it was my opinion.
Conklin: That's fine. We're perilously close to the end of the tape. I think rather than start another question, I'll just turn it over.
[00:31:36] [END OF AUDIO]
Conklin: When the men were brought back on the ships from the war and the piers at Fort Mason were a hub of activity, what do you remember about the ship's arrival days? What performers come to mind and ceremonies or parties?
Amelia: Oh, I was not a part of them, but I'll remember when the first prisoners came back from the Philippines island, from the Bataan March, remember? Oh, brother, that was really something. Those were the first ones.
Conklin: What was--
Amelia: Like I told you, they would debark at Fort Mason. They had all kinds of piers there and big buildings, and they would debark. As you saw in that magazine and that book there, the whole bunch of us, all whole post came out and formed lines, the girls, the wax, and the soldiers and the civilians. My picture's probably in there too. It was really wonderful. Then they marched them to Letterman. I don't think they even came to the dispensary. They just went right to Letterman because they had suffered so much in the Philippines.
Conklin: What stories do you remember from the ambulance drivers that had to pick up some of the worst of them?
Amelia: You mean?
Conklin: Just--
Amelia: Oh, stories?
Conklin: Yes. Do you remember anything? Talking to the ambulance drivers.
Amelia: Oh, yes. It was a terrible, bloody thing. They'd go out to the fields and they would pick them up and the dead and the dying. Mostly the dying. They'd bring to Fort Mason. Oh, well, first of all, the thing that struck me is funny, haha, the ambulance driver would have an aid with him. A lot of those men that were on the ships, they were young geezers that just really didn't know much about medicine.
One man told me that he did an appendectomy on the ship. I says, "How could you do that?" He said, "There was nothing to it." He says he just opened them up and you saw this inflamed thing, you cut it out and you sewed him up again.
It was the same thing with the dentists. Instead of electricity, they had foot pedals that they would use to drill your teeth. A lot of them just never did any of this before. They were just guys and they had something that had to be done. Now, this is what I didn't see, but what I was told, and some fellas told me about what they did as far as dental work reconstruction, filling and so forth and so on.
Like I said, they had this foot-- I says, "What'd you do with the foot pedal?" We'd go around-- A lot of them became aids or whatever you call it, ambulance drivers afterwards, because they were enamored of their job and was doing something. They had no training.
Anyway, this one guy was saying he was out in the field there, they picked up all these guys that had been shot, big abdominal wounds and everything else. They didn't have any, they just picked them up and they brought them to the closest place, like the dispensary or wherever it was. Not our dispensary, but wherever.
The guy was saying that this aid that was picking these people, he says, "They're howling back there and they're-- Can I give them something for their pain?" The driver says, "Yes" there's a handful of pills there. Just give them." He says, "Well, I don't know what they are." He says, "Doesn't make any difference, it's all APC." That's what they had in those days. I don't know what APC is now, Cedron or something like that. That's all they had.
As the guys came back and they were beginning to discover sulfa and penicillin, now that was really the turning point of medicine. I think, of course, I don't really know. I can't say that I'm not a medical person.
Conklin: What ailments did you see in the returning servicemen? Any kind of strange tropical diseases? Were men quarantined at Fort Mason?
Amelia: Well, they would do all that on the ship. They would have medical personnel on the ship, and they would segregate them. These were men coming from the Philippines and from the islands out there, Okinawa and whatever.
Conklin: What does these--
Amelia: They would take them-- I told you before that they had a-- and I don't know whether do they still have it or not, but they would have a train that would be at the foot of Aquatic Park.
Conklin: [unintelligible 00:04:59]
Amelia: It went right to Letterman.
Conklin: What sorts of ailments were commonly coming back from--
Amelia: Wounds? Nothing--
Conklin: No skin rashes? No intestinal parasites?
Amelia: Not that I know of. Maybe there was but that-- Then the ones that Letterman couldn't handle, they were flown to Travis Air Force Base. Where's that up? Around Fairfield?
Conklin: Yes. They did a lot of work up there.
Conklin: How did the Fort Mason port of embarkation change since you were there a long time from World War II to the Korean War? What was different? What was the feelings like?
Amelia: Well, now the girls were being replaced by military men. There were aids and so forth, and they knew a little about medicine. Then you would see more men there. There was all different kinds of people that were brought in. There was this business of the sick and the dying coming in from the Philippines. That was terrible.
Conklin: Then the Korean--
Amelia: Then it simmered down a little.
Conklin: That wasn't happening? There wasn't that sort of crisis feeling during the Korean War?
Amelia: No, after that crisis was over. Then in the Korean War-- Was it the Korean War? We sent military aids over. We didn't send men to fight, but we were showing them how to fight. I remember they had American uniforms and things like that. The dispensary was up on the hill there. When you can just look down, you can see these ships that were--
Conklin: How did your work change between those two wars?
Amelia: Like I said, these young soldiers would come over there and you almost didn't know them from the Americans because they wore American garments and hats and stuff. When you got closer to them, you could see it was Korean, something like that. It was an assistant group or something like that. Was Korean-- Was that pretty bad? I don't remember.
Conklin: Well--
Amelia: We got over that pretty quickly, didn't we?
Conklin: It seems like it. The tone of Fort Mason was very different.
Amelia: It changed completely, yes.
Conklin: How was--
Amelia: Then there was a-- I don't know, my brothers now went to Germany, and like you asked me before, what was I doing, I didn't have much time to fool around or do anything because my mother was crying and praying all the time for her two boys. I was the only one there that was there. I didn't have time to do any chasing around or anything like some of the others did.
Conklin: Since you talked a lot to the returning soldiers from World War II, what was happening with the Japanese war brides program?
Amelia: Oh, that was something else. Now, when the war was Japan, there was Okinawa and all of that. That was terrible because the Japanese had intended the world domination for many, many years. Even in the Hawaiian islands and in the Philippines.
Conklin: These war brides coming back to Fort Mason--
Amelia: Later on when things started simmer down and the soldiers, you were starting to fraternize with these pretty Japanese girls. There was no question about it. They would go over there. Then when their tour of duty was up, then the next wave of soldiers came over there, and everything was all set up already. These girls would do housekeeping for them.
Conklin: Then when they brought these women back, did they all come to Fort Mason?
Amelia: They didn't allow them. The army wouldn't allow that. The army officially didn't allow fraternization with the enemy.
Conklin: Then there wasn't a lot of Japanese war brides?
Amelia: Of course, no. Before that, there was a lot of fooling around back and forth. There were a lot of illegitimate Japanese American babies.
Conklin: Did you have to help them medically at Fort Mason?
Amelia: No, we didn't have anything to do with that. Later on, like I said, there was a lot of babies that the Jacks wouldn't acknowledge and the Americans couldn't bring them over. They didn't want to, but there was a lot of-- What do you call them? Japanese-American babies. What was her name? Pearl Buck. She started a movement over there where she took care of all of these-- not all, but mostly these orphans. Then later on, the soldiers were allowed to bring their war brides over.
Conklin: Did you ever meet these women?
Amelia: No, I didn't.
Conklin: They didn't come to Fort Mason?
Amelia: No, except that the couple of the women that I had worked with, they hated the thing that their son were marrying Japanese girls. "What am I going to do? I'm going back to Iowa with a Japanese baby."
Conklin: What about the--
Amelia: That was in the beginning.
Conklin: What about the Australian war brides? Did you ever see any of them [unintelligible 00:10:44]?
Amelia: We didn't get to see them. I didn't think they came through our way, did they?
Conklin: Okay. Well, if you didn't see them-
Amelia: No.
Conklin: -I don't know. When the Hampton Young soldiers, some of them fresh from the hills, arrived in San Francisco, what role did the gay community play in--
Amelia: We had no gay-- We didn't know anything about that in those days. You mean lesbians and gays?
Conklin: Yes. I thought we had--
Amelia: Homosexuals?
Conklin: I thought we had discussed the fact that a lot of the men found the young servicemen very attractive.
Amelia: There was, but as later on as the soldiers were billeted at Fort Mason, they would stay there, and they'd go out on the town. Naturally, they'd go down to Drift Down to Polk Street, which was close by to Van Ness Avenue, and that's where the original homosexual men, never ladies, hung out, and guys would come back. At that time, men were working with me.
At that time, I had gone through these other departments, and I was back at the front desk, and so taking care of the charts and the files. There was a couple of guys working in there with me, and I would hear them talking together, because I was busy doing my work. Well, busy, busy all the time.
I could hear them, and they were talking about somebody went out last night because they were with somebody. Oh boy, what a wonderful time they had. They went down to Pinocchio's, which was the-- Well, Pinocchio was a different kind of a thing. It wasn't a homosexual thing, it was--
Conklin: No.
Amelia: It was female impersonators. Everybody [unintelligible 00:12:28] a couple of bucks to spend would go to Pinocchio, because it was a nice joint. Some of them would go home with these guys. Oh God, they were treated royally, and they thought it was wonderful. The guys weren't there long. They were just interim-- Whatever I'm trying to say.
Conklin: In transit?
Amelia: In transit, yes, before they went home.
Conklin: Okay.
Amelia: Now, gee, [laughs] you see that in television and everything. It's just a different world.
Conklin: A different world altogether. Can you describe your job and your part in shipping food to Korea? What happened to the surplus on the docks and all of that.
Amelia: Then I went from one job to the next. I worked in a dental clinic, and then I worked in a laboratory, and then in the X-ray department, and the men's physical section, that's where I learned about all of these social diseases, of course, of-- whatever. Then they would put me where they would need me, and the next thing I know, the girl and the veterinary, the clerk, she was gone. Well, we'll send [unintelligible 00:13:47] there. That's what I did, was just paperwork.
At that time, a lot of people were going back and forth. There were men that were sent overseas, and then they could take their families with them, and the families would have parakeets and dogs and cats and so forth, and they would have to go through the veterinarian's office. That's where I would have to tell them that you can't take your dog unless he's got shots and stuff, and you can't take him to the Hawaiian Islands. Because I think it was a six-month's quarantine. He might as well leave. Then it's the same thing when the animals came back, some would bring back little monkeys and things like that. They were not permissible to be--
Conklin: What happened to the monkeys?
Amelia: Oh, Lord, I don't know, but they would bring all kinds of crazy things, and they would smuggle them in more or less. Then the veterinarians, actually were the Department of Agriculture. That's where they got their education, was through the--
Dr. Peterson, I guess, is the one that referred you to me or whatever, me to you. When he got out of the service, he still was a veterinarian, but-- What was I going to say? Oh, and the boys would come and tell the different stories when I was still at the front desk there. They would talk about how the shifts they kept on sending food over their food, because it would be on the list. You send so many tons this day, and then next month you'd have to send that many tons, or else your funds were cut off, so they would just keep on shipping stuff over there.
Conklin: What was happening to that cruise?
Amelia: Somebody was saying they were just rotting on the docks there. Well, nobody knows about this, but I mean, what would happen? You'd get a ton of bananas that nobody wants. Avocados, they would send tomatoes crates.
Conklin: Then what about the return trip? You were telling me about the seagulls and--
Amelia: There were so many military men that came over, and then they would also-- they'd have extra food from the men when-- You never asked me this, but what was the situation here in the United States? We couldn't get any meat. We couldn't get any this, and you couldn't get any of that, couldn't get any--
Conklin: [crosstalk] in the Korean War not World War II.
Amelia: I don't know when that was. When did we have those food stamps?
Conklin: That was World War II.
Amelia: Yes, food stamps.
Conklin: That was World War II. During Korea, you actually had plenty of food, but there was a lot being wasted, is what I'm hearing.
Amelia: Yes, that's it. There was a lot being wasted, because the soldiers, the men on the ships would be given-- There had to be a certain amount of food and stuff for the men. Then when they would come back, they couldn't bring it back the ship with food on it, so they'd have to get rid of it.
Conklin: How would they do that?
Amelia: A lot of it was just thrown overboard. That's why their ships were being followed by the seagulls, and everybody wondered, "How come there's ships coming in?" Now that's all just talk. I don't know.
Conklin: Well, those are interesting stories.
Amelia: The government would think it was terrible for a person to say such a thing. That's a bunch of lies.
Conklin: Well, stories [crosstalk]--
Amelia: It would be just like if you had a boarding house, and you had 50 people, and so whoever you were getting the food, whoever was supplying you would send you enough food for 50 people, then all of a sudden you'd have 10 people. [laughs] What would you do? You wouldn't say, "I don't need this anymore."
Conklin: Could you tell me about the horses or the mules?
Amelia: Oh, yes, there was a lot of animals.
Conklin: That were kept under the bridge above Fort Point.
Amelia: Yes, they had a big--
Conklin: Tell me about that.
Amelia: I think they still have those brick stables, those four brick places. In fact, that's next to the last place that I worked. I was working for the veterinarians now, and they were all food inspection, but before that, in the early days--
Conklin: Oh, I see. I thought it was while you were there. That's okay. We know about--
Amelia: No, but while I was there, they were sending animals overseas.
Conklin: What kind of animals?
Amelia: Well, there were a lot of animals. There were a lot of animals. In fact, they used to train animals over there, because they had--
Conklin: [unintelligible 00:18:25]
Amelia: [crosstalk] They had three or four different kinds of animals. They were guard dogs. Now they have these dogs that sniff cocaine and so forth, and so on.
Conklin: What other kind of animals did you have [unintelligible 00:18:39]--
Amelia: They had dogs too there.
Conklin: Mostly dogs. There weren't horses or mules in the days you were there?
Amelia: I didn't come in contact with that, but I heard these stories about the mules that they sent, because the mules were surefooted, and they'd go like up in the Grand Canyon, where you couldn't hardly walk, and you certainly couldn't take any supplies.
These mules, smart animals, they put one foot in front of the other one, and they had a lot of mules there at the-- They even had ships. In fact, I thought you were going to ask me that, I would've showed you some pictures that they had, where they had to clean up after the animals, and so forth and so on.
Conklin: Onboard the ships.
Amelia: Onboard the ships.
Conklin: During World War II? Earlier?
Amelia: No, they weren't so worried about human lives then.
Conklin: At the end of World War II, and actually during the war, there were a lot of very large-scale events at Fort Mason. In June of '45, there was an open house for a hospital ship, The Ernest Hinds, and 24,000 people came. Did you go to those big events?
Amelia: No, I didn't. No.
Conklin: Your area was quiet pretty much--
Amelia: [crosstalk] I was just a little, old clerk. They had the Fort Mason-- In fact, Fort Mason's Officers mess is still open. They still have occasions. They still have parties and things there because it had a beautiful view and it was a lovely thing. I used to go there quite a lot. They used to do a lot of gambling too with the slot machines and things. You didn't know that?
Conklin: No. [unintelligible 00:20:28]
Amelia: In the enlisted men's clubs. I couldn't remember that. That was the first time I ever knew anything about that, but the nickels would all come down. I remember one time I got a bunch of nickels and I said to the guy next to me, "Give me your hand. Get hold all these nickels." [laughs]
Conklin: Was it common to go out after work for a drink with the people that you worked with? Did people socialize a lot together after work?
Amelia: You mean the employees or with the military?
Conklin: Well, just anybody that--
Amelia: Yes, I used to. We used to go out before dinner.
Conklin: Would you eat down at the Fisherman's Wharf area?
Amelia: Well, I was not that social because I couldn't very well-- Because my mother was crying about her boys coming home from Germany. What ended first? The Japanese war first? No, Germany. Wasn't it Germany, the one that was first? Yes.
Conklin: Do you remember that day? The V-J Day, Victory in Japan.
Amelia: Yes, and the VE day.
Conklin: What was the tone like?
Amelia: Which came first? The VE day, victory in Germany, Europe?
Conklin: What was the tone like at Fort Mason at VJ Day?
Amelia: I don't remember so much, but I do remember on the outside, oh God, everybody was jumping up and down on Marcus Street and hugging and kissing each other.
Conklin: There wasn't a huge celebration going on [crosstalk]--
Amelia: I'm sure there must have been, but I was not that social. There is a lot of celebrations down there.
Conklin: What was the closing ceremony like at Fort Mason? Were you there? Did you see the closing ceremony?
Amelia: No, I was working. I went from pillar to post. As the jobs closed down, I was glad that I was able to hold onto my job. I wanted to hang onto it until I at least retired. I don't even know what the date was when Fort Mason closed, but then I remember there was a little while there that I actually went over to the Oakland Army terminal, because that was a supply depot. Then all of our ships went over there, and that was the end of that. What else was I going to say? I forgot what I was saying.
Conklin: It's okay.
Amelia: Oh, about all the parties. Every time an officer or somebody of note, we'd always have a big to-do up at the officer’s club at the Fort Mason.
Conklin: When they left the service, or they got an award or a promotion?
Amelia: Yes, there was always somebody. We'd all take up a collection for the big wigs, more or less. [laughs]
Conklin: What sorts of presents would you get them?
Amelia: Oh, I don't know. We'd all put in for something and then would give them Lord knows what? I don't remember.
Conklin: You were never in charge of buying the--
Amelia: Oh, no, no, no. I was just a clerk.
Conklin: Did they open the somethings at these parties?
Amelia: Oh, yes.
Conklin: What were in the boxes?
Amelia: I don't remember.
Conklin: What were the parties like? Were they [crosstalk]--
Amelia: We weren't supposed to give the officers things, presents and gifts. That [00:24:00] was a no-no, but still they did, they took up a collection. Just like they do when some lady was going to have a baby, we'd take a book collection, [laughs] or a shower or something like that.
Conklin: What was the climate at these parties?
Amelia: Oh, it was fun. Everything was over, the war was over. I wasn't there. Then we moved to the old Letterman Hospital. You know those old wooden shacks they had there, before they built the-- I was working there for quite a while too.
Conklin: What were you doing there?
Amelia: Still clerical work. Looking at the food. The suppliers of the food that the army would consume, like ice cream and steaks and roast beef and stuff like that. All the food that the military would use was inspected by the-- There were a lot of people down on the pier there. They had big warehouses where they would-- right under the court tower. Of course, I would've to do all that paperwork.
Conklin: [laughs] What memorable people do you remember from your time working with the Army? Do any people come to mind that were just really memorable?
Amelia: Some were.
Conklin: Like who?
Amelia: I don't know. They used to invite me to the officers’ club, and to the NCO club right there. I worked right by the headquarters building here and the NCO club was right next door. I couldn't go there by [00:26:00] myself naturally, but I used to go over there and have drinkies and something to eat or something like that at lunchtime. At that time, everything was much more relaxed.
Conklin: What time period are we discussing?
Amelia: We're-- Golly, I don't know. [laughs] It all [crosstalk]
Conklin: '50s, late '50s, '60s?
Amelia: Probably in the '60s.
Conklin: You began?
Amelia: Then from there, the whole group, it became-- Instead of the Army transportation, it was under the area veterinarian and the post veterinarian. Then there was Stoneman-- What was the name of that place? They were the guys who were--
Conklin: Well, Stoneman?
Amelia: Yes, Stoneman, and all those other various places that we would serve things, serve food whatever it was. It had to be government-inspected. If it was government inspected, and if it I had anything to do with the military, naturally it would go through the veterinarians.
Conklin: Would you ever do any of the inspection--
Amelia: Oh, no.
Conklin: It's just paperwork?
Amelia: Just paperwork, yes.
Conklin: The people that were inspectors, what backgrounds did they have?
Amelia: Oh, they were veterinarians, officers. They came in as officers, the veterinarian.
Conklin: They actually just inspected food. They didn't inspect animals, it sounds like?
Amelia: Well, not--
Conklin: Interesting.
Amelia: I don't know what they did, but we had a lot of-- In those days, we had a big-- Down to South City there, we had a big, big, big, big corral there where they slaughtered animals. What was the name of that?
Conklin: I think it was the Armour Packing Plant.
Amelia: Yes, yes.
Conklin: It was a company plant.
Amelia: They had some gruesome stories about-- I didn't want to remember.
Conklin: You'd have to go down the--
Amelia: No, no, no. I could do the paperwork. So many millions of pounds of [crosstalk] tenderloin, so forth and so on.
Conklin: You'd get the meat for the army from South San Francisco?
Amelia: We'd never see them because our inspectors would go down there and look and see, and there was these liver and the heart and so forth. They had these flukes and things, and then they couldn't accept anything unless it was A1. That's where I finally wound up.
Conklin: Did you make any friends during your army years that you still stay in contact with?
Amelia: Well, no, because there were-- there were some, but they were from different-- not from the area here, they came-- Well, like the soldiers, Lord knows where they came from. They went back to where their roots were.
Conklin: In my mind, the situation was dire. You were working extremely quickly and hard. It was a time of strife.
Amelia: In the beginning.
Conklin: You were meeting people and then you'd never see them again. In my mind, that sets up a situation socially where you don't really get to have satisfying contact with people. It all sounded awfully quick. How did that affect you?
Amelia: Well, I don't know. There were men that would say, "Come on out and do this," and that and the other thing, but I wasn't that type. In those days, you either were a loose girl [laughs] or you weren't. I just wasn't. I was a good Catholic girl. [laughs]
Conklin: You couldn't go out with them at all?
Amelia: I would go out occasionally with different things, to go out to dinner or to their [00:30:00] parties and stuff like that, but no fooling around. I wasn't much of a one to fooling around. Were you?
[laughter]
Even when you were younger?
Conklin: The Conklin is now interviewing
Amelia: It's altogether different than it is now. Nowadays you say, "Hello, goodbye. Where did we sleep tonight?"
Conklin: What happened with the girls that were "a little looser" than you were? What happened to them and their-- Did the word get out what type of girls they were, let's say?
Amelia: Oh, sure.
Conklin: Did that affect their work?
Amelia: Not their work, no. They had their boyfriends and whatever waiting for them to pick them up. Well, it's going back to regular civilians again. Nurses were nurses, they were not army nurses. I wanted to tell you about the Army nurses that went on the ships and met the boys coming back overseas. [laughs]
Conklin: Well, we have a couple more minutes. Why don't you-
Amelia: Oh, no, this is all talk. This is the [unintelligible 00:31:05] You get these poor, lonely guys that had been away, and all they ever saw was these yellow girls. It was nice to see a white, purdy nurse who was available. They all had severance pay. They gave them their money right now. [laughs]
Conklin: Oh, and they ended up broke, huh?
Amelia: I guess so.
[00:31:37] [END OF AUDIO]
1906 Earthquake and Fire
Golden Gate NRA, Park Archives, GOGA 35256
"So she came back with this message that she had gotten that the whole city was going and that people could be evacuated from Fort Mason. And so we decided we didn't live there in that house, that we would go over to Oakland to some friends." - Miss McGivney
Miss McGivney
Miss McGivney discusses the 1906 Earthquake with park historian in 1976
Well, the earthquake was at 5:13. Now, isn't that correct?
Martini:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:00:30]
5:13 in the morning of Wednesday, April, the 18th. And I was a little girl, six years old. And I thought it was the end of the world. I hadn't been to Sunday school, but I must have been told the story of the end of the world because I thought, "Well, we'll all have to go to some big field. And the good will be on one side, the bad on the other." And I don't know whether I was to be on the good or the bad, but I was only disappointed that never did happen.
Martini:
So were lot of people after the earthquake happened.
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:01:00]
I guess that. My grandfather was living with us and he called from his room and said, "Stay where you are." And because we all stayed in our own rooms, but it was only in grandpa's room that the plaster fell. Now, I don't know whether you'd want me to include this. But this next... But [Fred Hartson 00:01:00]... My father went out in the street to see what was happening, I guess. He was always a very quick person to get dressed.
[00:01:30]
But evidently Fred Hartson, the man next door who was a [Buxton 00:01:11] German, he jumped out of his window and Pa come back laughing telling my mother and I heard it. He didn't tell it to me surely. He was telling my mother that Fred Hartson had jumped out the window but couldn't get back in and he just saw him dangling with his legs out the window and he didn't have any bottom to his pajamas, so Pa thought that was a good joke. Now, should I include that?
Martini:
Well, that's great.
Mrs. McGivney:
Because that tells the attitude of the people, you see.
Martini:
Sure.
Mrs. McGivney:
But of course our house was a wooden house and all houses around then were wooden, if there hadn't there been a fire, there would have been no damage at all except maybe a crack in the chimney and a little plaster in my grandfather's room.
Martini:
Where were you living at the time?
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:02:00]
That was at Pacific and Mason over at North Beach. Then at 10 o'clock in the morning, my father took me for a walk and I'm so glad he did. We walked along Powell Street, up to Powell in California, where the Fairmont was and we could look down over the city. At that time, at 10:30 in the morning, the buildings downtown were burning. And we could see them but we weren't alarmed because it seemed far away.
[00:02:30]
Then we walked down California Street to Grant Avenue to Chinatown and then turned north and walked back through Grand Avenue, but we couldn't walk on the sidewalk because the brick fronts of each house in Chinatown had fallen onto the sidewalk. Therefore, we had to walk out in the street. And you could look up into the houses and each house looked like a doll house that has no front to it. We could see all these rooms and these Chinese women going about their daily chores-
Martini:
As if nothing was the matter.
[00:03:00]
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:03:30]
Well they were packing too, I guess. You see? Yes. Then in the afternoon, we must have heard through just people telling one another because few people had telephones in those days, we must have heard that the fire was coming. My grandfather stayed in the house and he took down all the curtains and folded up everything. He was all ready to move, but you couldn't get any conveyance. We didn't have any horses by then. Very few people had automobiles in 1906. Grandpa stayed in the house and the rest of the family walked out Pacific Street to Pacific Avenue and then out and then down Venice to Union and then to some friends at Union and Octavia.
[00:04:00]
[00:04:30]
We stayed there overnight. I don't remember anything else of that day. And then the next day I can remember playing with the children of this family, the Hannaberrys and the Keagans and we went along Union Street, what is the famous Union Street now and Mrs. Moragia had a vegetable store there and she called us in. She said, "Come in children and take whatever you want." But we thought the woman must be crazy because she was giving all this produce away. But she was smart. She knew it wouldn't keep. They didn't have refrigeration in those days. And later on after the earthquake, Mrs. Moragia's husband and her sons became very important commission merchants down in the produce area and Mrs. Moragia lived in her flat at Union and Octavia until she passed away not too long ago.
Then that next day was Thursday when we were just moseying along Union Street. And then one of the members of the family where we had stayed that evening had gone to see someone and she came back with the report, "The whole city is going." And I thought... Maybe you might just want this part for your tape. No?
Martini:
No.
[00:05:00]
Mrs. McGivney:
She said, "The whole city is going." And we found out that there wouldn't be evacuation through Fort Mason. I didn't know McDonald Avenue but we just found our way down here. And I think we walked down Venice Avenue and came in the Venice gate. I don't think that other gate was built that I came through today.
Martini:
It wasn't.
Mrs. McGivney:
No.
Martini:
The entrance at that time was on Venice near the north point or something. Yeah.
[00:05:30]
Mrs. McGivney:
Yes. We came in through that gate and evidently saw people walking and just followed the crowd. And my father had a little army chest on his shoulders that contained 21 dresses of mine that my mother had put into this chest because she had gone back Thursday morning and found grandpa with everything all packed but couldn't get anything out.
[00:06:00]
Papa took the little chest on his shoulders. My aunt carried a large oval picture with her mother's picture in it. My mother had nothing but a little fancy napkin ring that's now listed in antique books as being precious and that was a treasure of her, so she put that in her personal frame, a picture of mine that was in a metal frame.
[00:06:30]
That's all she saved. As we walked down through Fort Mason and found our way to McDowell Avenue, the very same asphalt pavement is there, people were very close together. It was just solid packed wall to wall people as it were, but nobody was noisy, nobody was excited. Nobody was hysterical. Nobody was over-concerned. Everybody was in the same boat. Some had little possessions that they would carry. One woman had a birdcage. And that birdcage must have scratch my nose. Because when my mother looked back to me one time, she said, "What happened to your nose?" And I said, "Oh, I don't know. I guess the lady's birdcage scratched it."
[00:07:00]
And my mother was in front of me. My father was at the back of me and my aunt at my side. Later on, I heard my mother say to my aunt, "She kept up pretty well, didn't she?" And I thought, "I'd done pretty well. It was fun." I'm ashamed to say but it really was.
Martini:
When you're that old, it's a big adventure.
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:07:30]
Yes, I was only six. Then we got down to the end of the road and I was anticipating a trip across the bay on a beautiful ferry boat because they were quite glamorous in those days and the clear story of the ferry boat had stained glass windows often. In one there was shells incorporated in the stained glass. I expected to have a ride on a lovely ferry boat. And instead, we were put on a freight ferry.
[00:08:00]
I don't remember whether there were seats or what, but I was so disappointed that I fell asleep. That was late in the afternoon. I remember there were quite a few Chinese going over too. Often people have wondered how the Chinese got to Oakland, but that's how. And I can remember my mother saying, "Well, poor Chinese have the same worries that we have." But they were smart. They had packed a lot of their clothing and possessions in flour sacks because I can remember seeing a large Chinese woman sitting on this great big sack, whereas my folks didn't take anything but these little dresses.
I didn't really need so many dresses. But my mother was a beautiful soul and she liked to doll me up and show me off, I guess. That pleased her. She was very unselfish. She never wanted anything for herself.
[00:08:30]
[00:09:00]
But that was late in the afternoon that the ferry left the end of Venice Avenue. I don't remember the trip across the bay but they did take us up the estuary that is between Oakland and Alameda. We landed at the foot of Broadway Street, which is now Jack London square. And there were quite a few people there waiting for people to come off these boats that must have been docking there. My mother met a man that she knew named Leland Price, I remember. He appealed to me because he owned a skating rink in San Francisco. We used to go skating in those days, roller skating.
[00:09:30]
Then he told us that the cars were not running. Maybe the power was off or something because it could have been too late. But I must have walked from First Street or whatever street that is at the dock out to 22nd Street, because my father had the little chest with the dresses in it on his shoulder that later on cut his shoulder. He couldn't have carried me, so I must have walked all the way. We stayed just a few days with those people. And then my mother found a place to live. We didn't have the experience then of standing in a red line for provisions as you did in San Francisco.
[00:10:00]
[00:10:30]
The stores over there evidently had sufficient. I guess my mother and aunt and my father had enough money to take care of them for a short time anyway. But after a few months in Oakland, we moved back to San Francisco. I'm so glad we did because I went back to Jean Parker School and I loved that school. I had just started in the first grade, you see. I was so pleased because I thought being that I had been away for a while, that the teachers would put me back. But no, they put me right out with the children of my own age. I finished the eighth grade there and I had such a happy school life, that I think it made my whole teaching life very happy because I had those memories.
Martini:
I think you said when we were talking over the phone, that there was no panic or anything else with all these people moving out.
Mrs. McGivney:
No, is that what you would want me to stress? As we walked down-
Martini:
What was the feeling of the whole day? I know you said for yourself it was a good experience. Were the adults taking it the same way? Were they very somber and upset?
[00:11:00]
Mrs. McGivney:
I think so. They were. They were young. My mother and father were young, you see. They must have been about 28, 29, 30 in there. And my aunt was a little bit older, but she was young too. And they had each other and they had their health. And even though grandpa did not come with us and we didn't see him for a few days later, and I remember when we did meet him, the first thing I said to him was, "Do you have water here?"
[00:11:30]
[00:12:00]
No. The first thing I said to the people in Oakland when we got to Griffins house, "Do you have water?" Because evidently, the water wasn't available in this house out here it Octavia Street. They have to collect water because the water manes had all broken and that's why the fire was able to spread all over the city. But no, I don't ever remember anything except the thrill of it all or something different. It was as if I were being in a dramatic production all the way through. And when I would talk to people afterwards, it was always before the earthquake and after the earthquake, before the fire and after the fire. Like BC and AD, everything was measured from then.
Martini:
Whatever happened to your house? Was it totally burned down?
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:12:30]
Oh yes. I didn't ever see what was left of the ruins because my mother and aunt came over and they told me that nothing was left but the chimney. In those days, every house had a brick chimney I guess. Even for a stove, I don't remember that we had a fireplace. There must have been a large brick chimney. And they said all they did see there was my doll's head bisque or porcelain. It was intact but they didn't bring that to me. And then everybody wrote his or her recent address on the chimney so that their friends could find them.
[00:13:00]
So evidently the McGivneys put a sign up that they were living in Oakland and they found from the people across the street, that the [Schuesters 00:13:04], my little girlfriend, Virginia and her folks went to Sausalito. And so they had their address so we went over and found them. But-
Martini:
I've heard that people had a very hard time finding their way around the city after the fire because all the landmarks were gone. The street signs of course were burned down.
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:13:30]
[00:14:00]
I wouldn't know that because that will that would be newcomers, but they cleared the streets very soon, I think. It must have been a few months later that my father brought me over or maybe just a few weeks later. And some street cars were running because he took me on, I think a market street car up to 14th and Market and I saw all the stoves of those families out on the edge of the sidewalk that people were cooking out there. And then we transferred to a film walk car that was running. It took us over to, say about Vallejo Street and we had to go through St. Vallejo and Scott were the owners of the foundry where he was employed lived.
[00:14:30]
And my father had some salary coming to him, you see, from Monday and Tuesday of that week or maybe two weeks, but he had some salary coming to him. And he found out that he was to go out to the home of these people and they would give him the money. And in those days of course, it was all gold and... What is it? Coins. And currency is paper. It was all coins. But I'm glad he took me with him that day because I saw those stoves on the street. I always remembered 14th and Market and the same flats are there, the same buildings on the south side of the street.
[00:15:00]
Then another time, a little bit later, say three months later, Pa took me over on a ferry boat and we got off I guess at the Ferry Building and then walked as far as Pacific Street because it was one of the streets that had been cleared. And we walked all the way over Pacific Street from the ferry to Venice Avenue. And in all that walk, there was only one building that had been put up and it was a long barracks of corrugated iron. There was just that one building.
[00:15:30]
But that street was cleared at that time. The sidewalks were cleared. I think they got in and did a pretty good job. I think the... I know that the military took over. There was martial law and I think I heard a man say on a boat to Alaska one time, he had to get out of San Francisco in a hurry or didn't come into San Francisco, because if he did, he would have been recruited and had to help with cleaning up of the debris.
[00:16:00]
Then, as we moved back to San Francisco, we went back to our old neighborhood to a little place that is called Caroline Place but that's no longer there. There's a housing project there. But the landlady that we had from before the earthquake built a house there and rented a little apartment to my folks. Right next door lived the Podestas from the Podesta Baldocchi Florists. And many of the chimneys were still up.
[00:16:30]
[00:17:00]
Then they had to be torn down because they were dangerous. I can remember, there was one time when all of these chimneys were being demolished. And then we moved back out to the flat of the Slattery. We moved out to Octavia and Union, to where the Slatterys lived. They had flat so that by that time, we moved out there and we got grandma and grandpa back with us and had to start all over again. You see, my folks didn't have any furniture, any silverware, any [inaudible 00:17:00], anything. Everything started again.
Martini:
Was your dad insured or anything?
Mrs. McGivney:
No. It wasn't that terrible. He was young and why bother about insurance? And some companies, of course, didn't pay on their insurance. But many did. The London, Liverpool and Globe was very good. And if he had had insurance, it would have helped a lot. But it didn't worry them. My folks were never mercenary really.
[00:17:30]
Martini:
I know my family was very much wiped out from the fire. We had a home with a delicatessen downstairs and we had a small factory-
Mrs. McGivney:
In a fire?
Martini:
In the 1906 fire.
Mrs. McGivney:
Oh, that was your great-
Martini:
My great grandfather. That was out in North Beach. We were wiped out uninsured and we never really recovered.
Mrs. McGivney:
Demartini? You're Martini, not Demartini.
Martini:
Martini.
Mrs. McGivney:
Where was there... We used to buy all that macaroni and maviola and everything.
Martini:
Well, the delicatessen and the [inaudible 00:17:55] the sales. It was on Broadway to about Carney.
[00:18:00]
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:18:30]
Oh down there. Yeah. Well, I can remember... See, I received my first communion in St. Francis church, even though I was living over in Octavia Street. I always went down. I went down to school to Jean Parker, to the little Union Street car. It was a little electric car, but we used to call it the [dinky 00:18:13]. But I was so familiar with North Beach because right after the earthquake, the Holy Family Sisters had a little... It was like a green... Instead of a refugee... The refugee shacks or houses were built in what is now Washington Square. But in the middle of Washington Square, this should go on the record because I don't hear much about it, there was a large building built that would be as large as maybe two dozen refugee houses.
[00:19:00]
And this large space was given to the Holy Family Sisters for their kindergartens. And I used to go down there after school sewing school. And one day they told me that they were going to have a drawing and I thought I would have to go to the blackboard and draw something. And I didn't do that it was a drawing of numbers. And the numbers that I got was the lucky number and I got a dollar. And I couldn't imagine why I was given the dollar when I didn't give them a dollar and I didn't have to draw anything from any box.
[00:19:30]
And then that Christmas, they taught me a dear little song, Hang Up The Baby's Stocking. I sang that alone, but it was down there in the center of Washington Square. And it was to the music of Carnival in Venice, but it was, "Hang up the baby's stocking, be sure you don't forget for the dear little dimpled darling has never seen Christmas yet. I told her all about it. She opened her big blue eyes, I guess she understood me. She looked so funny and wise." So that was it, what I was featured in as a soloist after the earthquake.
Martini:
Do you remember during the earthquakes that when you were being evacuated, do you by chance remember any soldiers running around? They were doing a lot of the police work with martial law. Especially here at Fort Mason. It was the headquarters-
[00:20:00]
Mrs. McGivney:
No. They must have been there. But I don't remember. But they didn't fight me or that I took it for granted that would happen. I don't remember.
Martini:
Maybe people were pretty terrorized at that time. As I understand, the soldiers were all armed and on the streets and that's kind of...
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:20:30]
Not those first few days. That was later when this man came through. And when the fire... See, the fire lasted for three days. And then after that they had to be careful that people would loot in other houses, I guess. West of Venice where people had left and then could go back to their houses. See, none of the houses were burned, or very few. I think out there was a few, but very few were burned west of Venice Avenue. They dynamited all along Venice Avenue on both sides. And wide street plus the dynamiting, that broke the fire. That lovely spreckels mansion that was it, about clay, that was ruined and it was so beautiful. I don't think it was necessary.
[00:21:00]
It might have been then that the soldiers were strict and they had to be. Oh, yes. I think they said that they... I think I have a paper home that the Griffins gave me, where we stayed at home, that if anybody would be found looting, they would be shot on site.
Martini:
That would possibly be the proclamation by the mayor.
Mrs. McGivney:
Yes. That was the proclamation-
Martini:
Mayor Schmitz.
Mrs. McGivney:
Yes. I have one of those originals.
Martini:
Oh. That's a very nice item to have.
Mrs. McGivney:
Yeah. That should go to the Historical Society. I don't know. I imagine they have one.
[00:21:30]
Martini:
They have a very good sized collection.
Mrs. McGivney:
I'm sure they do.
Martini:
Hold on to it.
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:22:00]
I don't think that... See, those first few days, I don't know how... Nelly Slattery had been someplace and she found out that the whole city was going and that anybody who wanted to leave could go by way of Fort Mason. Whether there were other boats down at the Ferry Building going over or not, I don't know. But this has never been written up and it's never been pictured. Nobody had a camera. Nobody saw it enough of it evidently.
Martini:
That's why it's interesting because there were evacuations through the Ferry Building.
Mrs. McGivney:
Yeah, were they?
Martini:
Yeah. As you said, you may very well be the only person still living who was evacuated through here.
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:22:30]
[00:23:00]
Yes, I don't remember any other children. Maybe the people with children, but they'd stick it out. And maybe we would have too if our house had been out here. But you see, we left the first place. We were like these people fleeing Europe now that are refugees from one place to another. And Grandpa, as I said, stayed back and he was a neat old man, he had gone to sea. When you lived in a hammock and small quarters, you have to be very neat. And Aunt Jenny and my mother went down to the house and came back and said, "Oh, what a shame. We couldn't get a horse and buggy or wagon or truck to take our belongings out to the Slatterys. There on Union and Octavia." Dumped them in the yard, even. He even had the curtains down and folded and ready to go.
And it was a six room flat. That was nicely furnished from what my mother had as a young woman. My grandparents had gone with her too. My aunt and her father was still living in my mother's [inaudible 00:23:19]. And so it was the two families and nothing was saved except that little napkin ring and my picture and my grandmother's picture which Jenny had and the dresses.
[00:23:30]
Martini:
I probably would have very hard to get Ed Raymond to save everything at that time. Everyone was trying to move everything out.
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:24:00]
Oh, that's it. And the ones that had influence I guess. They gobbled them up quickly in the morning and my folks didn't think about it evidently till the next day. Oh. And it was just after Easter. I think maybe it was the Wednesday after Easter and I had been given a little white rabbit for Easter and when I saw my grandfather a few days later over at Oakland after he had to leave because the militia told him to leave but I don't ever remember his saying that the soldiers were unnecessarily cruel or anything. Just for his safety, he had to get out and leave that house before the fire leaks there.
[00:24:30]
I said to grandpa, "What happened to my rabbit? Did you take it with you or something?" To that effect and he was the kind old man he said, "Well, I opened the cage and I'm sure it ran." But it was cooked rabbit I'm sure. That's it. Now, will you ask me a question?
Martini:
Interview with Miss McGivney. Today is November 22, 1976. Good afternoon.
Mrs. McGivney:
Good afternoon.
Martini:
You were living in San Francisco at the time of the fire and earthquake?
[00:25:00]
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:25:30]
Yes. On April the 18th, 1906, we were living on Pacific Street between Powell and Mason. I was sleeping with my aunt at the time in her bedroom. And at 5:15 in the morning, I was awakened by a terrible noise and a rumbling. And even though I was only six years old, I had heard the story of the end of the world. So I said to myself, "This must be the end of the world." And I thought we would have to go to a field and see the dear Lord in the center of the field and the good people on one side and the bad on the other.
[00:26:00]
I don't know whether I qualify for the good or the bad. But that did not materialize and so I was a little bit disappointed. Well, there was much noise to the building when the first shake came. And then I remember after that, quieted down, there was another one. And my grandfather called from his room, "Stay where you are." Of course, we stayed where we were but it was only in my poor grandfather's room that the plaster fell, but he was not injured.
[00:26:30]
My father must have dressed quickly and went out into the street. I remember he came back and was telling my mother a little vignette that really shows that the people were not too concerned. He said, "Oh, Fred Hartson," that's my next door, "jumped out the window and he couldn't get back." And my father said, "When I saw him, his legs were just dangling at the window where he was trying to get back into the house. And he didn't have any bottom to his pajamas." Of course everybody who was on the street was laughing at poor Fred.
[00:27:00]
[00:27:30]
Well, around at 10 o'clock in the morning, my father took me for a walk along Powell Street up to California, where the Fairmont Hotel had just been opened, I believe. We could look from Powell and California towards many of the tall buildings downtown and many of them were burning. There were flames that really made an impression as a child, but I was not afraid because my father wasn't afraid and those buildings did seem far away.
[00:28:00]
The buildings around on the east side of Powell and California, they must have been low because I could look away downtown and see many, many buildings burning. Well, we walked down California street and then turned left at Grand Avenue to walk back through Chinatown and I'm so glad my father took me in that area too because every front of every house in Chinatown had fallen. All those bricks from the front of each house had fallen down onto the sidewalk. So we could not walk in the sidewalk, we have to walk in the middle of the street.
[00:28:30]
[00:29:00]
We could look up into the houses and see these Chinese going about their chores in the house or packing things and it appeared to me like a playhouse of a child that had no front to it. We went back home and my mother and aunt had decided that perhaps the fire would come as far as our house. Although I don't think they ever really believed it would. But we decided that we would go to the western part of the city to some friends at Union and Octavia.
[00:29:30]
We did walk along Pacific Avenue to Broadway and then North on Broadway to Union and then west on Union to Octavia to our friends. We stayed there overnight. There were many children there. Two families of children, the Hannaberrys and the Keagans and I remember playing with them but I don't remember anything else.
[00:30:00]
The next day, Thursday, April 19, the Hannaberry children and the Keagans and I walked along Union Street, that is now the artistic Union Street shopping area. That was down on the next block. We walked along there as part of our playing really. And Mrs. Moragia who had a vegetable and fruits store called us in and said, "You children, take whatever you want and take it home to your parents." And we thought the woman must be crazy because she was giving away produce but she was smart, because she knew that that produce would not keep because there were no refrigerators in vegetable stores in those days.
[00:30:30]
[00:31:00]
[00:31:30]
So we children went back to the Slatterys house. The grandmother's name was Slattery. And Natalie Slattery had been towards Venice Avenue and visiting with some friends. They had no telephone. So she came back with this message that he had gotten that the whole city was going and that people could be evacuated from Fort Mason. And so we decided we didn't live there in that house, that we would go over Oakland to some friends. And so, my father took this chest that he had carried on his shoulders with 21 of my dresses in it. And my aunt carried her mother's picture in a large gilded frame and my mother just had taken a little picture of me in a metal frame and a little silver napkin ring in her purse. And we found our way along Venice Avenue to the Venice Avenue gate of Fort Mason.
[00:32:00]
[00:32:30]
We went in the gate and followed the crowd to McDowell Avenue and walked slowly down that road was paved with asphalt as it is today. And it was packed, solid packed, side to side, wall to wall, as it were with people all we're very quiet. No one was calling to anyone else or loud or afraid or hysterical or over-concerned. They just were walking down this road as very good citizens. And my mother told me we were going to go on a ferry boat to Oakland. And I was intrigued with the idea of a ferry boat ride because the ferry boats in those days were very beautiful floating palaces with stain glass windows in them and some even had shells in the stain glass windows.
[00:33:00]
Well, a lady had a birdcage near me and I suppose that birdcage scratch my nose because my mother who was in front of me looked back and said to me, "What happened to your nose?" It had a scratch on it and was bleeding and I said, "Oh, I don't know. I guess the lady's birdcage scratched me." My aunt was at my left side and my father was at back of me carrying the little army chest with the dresses in it. We walked all the way down to the pier at the end of the McDowell avenue that would be the end of Venice Avenue and we got on a ferry boat. And I was thoroughly disappointed.
[00:33:30]
This little six-year-old girl was taken on a freight ferry boat and that was not glamorous to me and I was so disappointed that I fell asleep. But I remember seeing some Chinese women and I remember... They were sitting on big sacks of clothing or possessions that they had taken with them. And I remember my mother saying, "Well, the poor Chinese are in the same boat as we are. We all have the same worries."
[00:34:00]
[00:34:30]
I don't remember the ride across the bay because I fell asleep. And when I awakened, it was dark. I don't remember what time it was. But we had gone up the estuary on what used to be called the creek route. We were landed at the foot of Broadway Street, which is now Jack London Square. My mother met some friends there who told her that the streetcars were not running. And that one man in particular was Leland Price who had run a skating rink in San Francisco. Of course, we had all gone skating at the rink. And that was a lot of fun for a child who would skate on I think Oxblood skates. Oxblood wheels because I didn't have steel wheels at that time. And my father was carrying this little army chest with the dresses so he couldn't have carried me and I must have walked from First and Broadway up to 22nd and Broadway.
[00:35:00]
And we stayed in Oakland. After a few days, my mother was able to rent an apartment over there. And we stayed there for about three months and then came back to San Francisco to live in a little apartment that been built by Mrs. Devon Chancy who had been our landlady before the earthquake.
[00:35:30]
She built one of the first houses in San Francisco after that. I was so glad that we moved back to San Francisco, because I could go back to my old school, Jean Parker. And I had been in the first grade when the earthquake came. I thought they'd put me back because I had been over in Oakland for a few months but they put me right up in my regular grade with my classmates that I remembered from before the earthquake. And then later on, being that that little apartment was so small, we did move back out to Octavia and Union in one of the flats that Mrs. Slattery had vacant out there.
[00:36:00]
Martini:
I keep smiling because the many names you say, I must have gone to school with the grandsons of these people. I went to school with the Bob Slattery, with the Dave Devon Chancy, with a... Florist company.
Mrs. McGivney:
Podesta? Loya Podesta?
Martini:
No, with the Baldocchi.
Mrs. McGivney:
Baldocchi. Oh, yes.
Martini:
Yeah.
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:36:30]
[00:37:00]
I didn't know the Baldocchis but I knew the [Pacheco 00:36:24]. They were, let's see, there was Luis Pacheco and Emma, the cousins and the Podestas built one of the first houses in San Francisco after the earthquake and they told me the story of how they built up their business. They had a florist shop before the earthquake and they had contracts from many people to put reefs or floral flowers on graves for Decoration Day. And they would not have been obligated to keep that contract in the 30th of May, just a month after the earthquake but they were so conscientious that they did.
[00:37:30]
They made the arrangements and they went out to the cemeteries and they put all the reefs where they should be. And because of that, they gained prestige in San Francisco. And they opened a florist out at [inaudible 00:37:17] Florist. Yes. And then later on, they moved down to their location on Grant Avenue. My mother and Mrs. Podesta were very good friends. And Mrs. Podesta taught my mother to make [foreign language 00:37:34] and many Italian dishes. And I played with Loya and we collected the junk in the ruins.
Martini:
I can imagine.
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:38:00]
[00:38:30]
Yes. And we got to know the value of brass, you see. And we would scratch the [caspadora 00:37:52] spittoons, we called them and then we would sell them. And we also collected bricks and we'd clean the bricks and stack them. And I even built, I guess I had the help of some of these little boys around, I built a little tiny house among the ruins in the what would have been the backyard of the Devon Chancys. And they also have built a vegetable garden there. And we had pictures taken with the spring wings growing in back of us so that the Italians were so conscientious that they didn't waste that land that had been ruined, they just dug it up and planted vegetables there.
When our little house was finished, it was a real project, such as the projects that children have in schools now. After building that little house out of just boxes and barrel estates and bricks, I invited my girlfriend Virginia who lived out around Franklin Street to come in to the little clay house that was in the yard and we served ice cream and cake there. That was the culmination out that little project.
[00:39:00]
Martini:
There must have been a lot of activity in the city during those months right afterwards. People building and teams clearing away the rubble.
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:39:30]
Oh, yes. And people came from all over the country. I think carpenters seeking work and to help too. There was much activity every place. And I remember one day after a few weeks, we had been in San Francisco a few weeks, they had to demolish all the old chimneys because they were dangerous. They sent the crews out to take down the brick chimneys.
Martini:
You never went back to your old house site and found any of your possessions?
Mrs. McGivney:
On Pacific Street?
Martini:
Right.
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:40:00]
No, I didn't see that. My folks spared me that I guess. My mother and aunt went back one day and they came home to Oakland telling me that they had seen my doll's head, the porcelain head had not been broken but of course, with the hair gone in the eyes, they didn't bring it home to me. And then they told me that they wrote their new address in Oakland on the chimney on Pacific Street so that the people who want to locate us could do so.
[00:40:30]
[00:41:00]
And they found on the chimney across the street, the address of Mrs. and Mr. Schuester, who had gone to Sausalito and my little girlfriend was Virginia Schuester, so we found them in Sausalito. And then it was later on that I went... They moved back to San Francisco and I came out here to Franklin Street to get Virginia. Grandpa and I came out to get her to take her down to eat the ice cream in the little house that we had built, the little playhouse in among the ruins. I had quite a little set too with Loya Podesta at one time. It was an Eddie de Martini, who live in one of the little apartments of Mrs... The land lady's name. Devon Chancy.
[00:41:30]
And Eddie later on, became a priest and he was stationed at St. Pete Paul's church, Father Eddie de Martini. But at that time, Eddie and I had had some difficulty with Loya Podesta, who was a handsome, big strapping guy, about a year or two older maybe or maybe not any older but larger. And one time, I went to complain to Mrs. Podesta, who laughed at me because it was this little girl complaining about her son, saying, "Loya, took that spittoon. It's brass and it belonged to me."
[00:42:00]
And she said, "Well, what makes you think it belongs to you?" And she said, "He has it." And I said, "Yes, but I saw it first." That was a woman's way of reasoning, that because I had seen it from a distance, I wanted it. But then Eddie and I, for a while, didn't talk to Loya. And we found a sledgehammer or something. And we said, "We'll hide that and Loya will never get it." And I don't know what happened to the sledgehammer because when we moved out to Union and Octavia, I know there was no sledgehammer taken with me.
Martini:
I just imagine this little girl with this big Italian guy arguing over a spittoon.
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:42:30]
Yeah, well, he was maybe just a little bit older but he was larger, handsome boy. And he wasn't going to give it to this little girl, I guess. And the mother then just smiled. And then I kind of saw the unreasonableness I guess. I had to say all this but my first instinct was, "I want that and it's mine."
Martini:
You must have walked when you were evacuated out. You must have come right by this building because this was up in 1906 when the earthquake-
[00:43:00]
Mrs. McGivney:
I suppose. And I don't remember except that at Westport, Mason and I think I had been here before because my folks would take me out on Sunday to Fort Mason or to Golden Gate Park, or to the Cliff House. And my father often took me to projects that were starting later on. Parkside was opening up and the streetcars run along they're just doing tracks and ties, and you could hear the ties rattling as a train track would make a noise.
Martini:
Did you ever ride the old street car that used to run around lands [inaudible 00:43:29]?
[00:43:30]
Mrs. McGivney:
Oh, yes. Yes. We often took that ride. Before the earthquake, we went on a train.
Martini:
Oh yes.
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:44:00]
[00:44:30]
We take a cable car from Jackson Street, Jackson and Washington and we went out on that cable car to around Presidio Avenue. It had a different route then. And we would get off out on Presidio Avenue and take a train at Presidio Avenue and California where the Jewish Community Center is now. And that train ran along California street out to where the Lincoln Park Golf rinks would be now. And then it went to the right and around the ocean, and along the area that's closed off now because it is dangerous. But that was a lovely ride on Sunday. And of course we only went when the weather was good and there were open air cars that had seats that turned backwards and forwards so that when you came back you just turn them over and you ended the train ride at a great big barn that was enclosed and the top of the inside was all black with the smoke of the steam train.
[00:45:00]
And that was right next to Sutro Baths. And then you would walk from there down by the Cliff House, the old Cliff House with all the spires on it and then down to the beach, where you bought delicious Austrian waffles. I don't know where you can buy those now but they were so delicious and they was served with just powdered sugar on them and they were a delicious cake and also you could see the birdman as he went down the hill and he would pick out a fortune for you?
Martini:
Johnny the birdman.
[00:45:30]
Mrs. McGivney:
Yes. And then after you walked along the beach, I supposed there were merry go rounds and some maybe Ferris wheel but not the great big play land before the earthquake. And then when it was time to go home, you walked up the hill to the train. I took the train home to Presidio Avenue and... What's that other... California and then the cable car from there.
[00:46:00]
Martini:
I think everybody that ever went out there must have seen that birdman because my grandmother and my aunt saw this also, Johnny, the birdman. He had one act. Apparently he had a bird that fired a little cannon and the other one would pretend to drop dead. A strange little act.
Mrs. McGivney:
I don't remember that. I remember he would give you a fortune, I think. Yes.
Martini:
Yeah. I must say, you have a fantastic memory.
Mrs. McGivney:
Well, that made an impression you see. Now I have a little aftermath to that.
Martini:
Sure.
[00:46:30]
Mrs. McGivney:
[00:47:00]
In 1908, we had moved from the flat, the Slattery is right across the street to the Vischis. V-I-S-C-H-I, lower flat. I think there's an art gallery there now. And Mr. Vischi was a Swiss watchmaker. And he had a little clock shop there. He had two daughters, Ada and Ethel and a son Gabriel, who became an MD. But Mrs. Vischi one day asked me if I wanted to go with Ethel and Ada down to what would be called Guest House Cold now, down here on the beach. We were going waiting. And so I said yes.
[00:47:30]
Now, this was 1908 to say, and the transport docks had not been built. And we came down and on that beach, we were the only people there that afternoon. And I don't know whether Mrs. Vischi went in waiting with us but we went waiting and that was the fun of that day. And then I think it got cold and we walked home. I don't remember whether we walked along Octavio or Laguna or Gulf Street, but it was one of those streets.
[00:48:00]
[00:48:30]
And then later on, about 1913, when they broke ground for the Machinery Hall for the 1915 exposition, Edna Aminis, a girlfriend and I and we were about 13 then you see, we went to the dedication of the Machinery Hall. And after that, we walked over to the transport docks and they were allowing visitors on the ship that day and we went on one of the ships and evidently we were around the offices quarters that appealed to be very much because they seemed so cozy. These little cabins were all decorated in flower tints.
[00:49:00]
I just thought, "Well, isn't this nice?" And it gave me itchy feet. I really wanted to travel ever after that. And later on, I was fortunate enough to get to each continent. Not for long, but I could say I put my foot on Egypt say, so that was Africa. I got to each one of the continents. And that afternoon, we met a very nice officer who evidently took an interest in these little girls and gave us some postcards.
I remember one of them. They had come back from the Orient, evidently, and one of the postcards was of Nagasaki and I remember that when the terrible atomic bomb was dropped on Nagasaki later on. That is my story.
Martini:
Thank you very much.
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