Martini: Thursday, March 12th, 1992. My name is John Martini. I'm a Ranger with the National Park Service. And this is an oral history tape being conducted at Fort Cronkhite. And we're going to be talking with Mr. Peddicord, who was in 6th Coast Artillery stationed here at Fort Cronkhite. Mr. Peddicord, you want to give me your full name and your birthday?
Norman:
It's Norman Earl Peddicord, and I now live in Lafayette, California. My birthdate was February 14th, 1923. I was in the Army from March 1943 until February 1946. And most of that time was spent right in this area, along the coast. Part of it was with the 6th Coast Artillery, and part of it was in Special Forces in the radar sections.
Martini: So this, yeah. I'd like to talk about that a little later. The Special Forces and the radar, wasn't directly under the 6th because they were [inaudible 00:01:14].
Norman: No, we were not directly under anybody, at that time [laughter].
Martini:
You were cutting edge technology. Also present are Mrs. Peddicord and a Volunteer-In-Parks, Paul Curry. To set the scene, we're sitting right now in Building 1059, which is one of the Series 700, two-story barracks located at Fort Cronkhite. If you could, you lived in a barracks like this, didn't you?
Norman: Yes, I lived in one, down the end of the line.
Martini: I think you said it was 10, it would have been 1054, or-
Norman: Either the last one or the one, this side of it.
Martini: ... 1054, or 1055-
Norman: Yeah.
Martini: ... by the numbering system. Where were you living when you were drafted into the Army?
Norman: San Francisco.
Martini: In San Francisco?
Norman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martini: Were you born in the city?
Norman: Yes.
Martini: Okay. So when you were drafted, you took your Basic Training?
Norman: In Camp Roberts.
Martini: Was there any specialization that you went through, or it was just straight Basic?
Norman: No, it was just straight Basic. And we just all got different assignments, scattered all over, from there.
Martini: Were you surprised when you ended up being assigned to your backyard?
Norman: Very much so [laughter].
Mrs. Peddicord: Yeah.
Martini: Kind of a basic question, but I don't know how it worked then. Did you have any say about where you might end up, was there any specialty you could request, like in today's Army?
Norman: None at all [laughter].
Martini: No.
Norman: They didn't ask us anything [laughter].
Martini: When did you first learn that you were going to be coming up here… how did they tell you?
Norman: When I got here [laughter].
Martini: When you got here?
Norman:
And then as we were just coming in, one of the noncoms [non-commissioned officers] had told us we were going to West Portal [laughter]. And I had lived in West Portal in San Francisco, and there was a 6-inch gun battery that was in a little park, that was right behind the West Portal district. And I thought at the time, maybe that's where I was going. But they meant West Portal, right up the end of the road here, by the tunnel.
Martini: Tell me about your arrival. What did you physically go through, when you got here? Did they bus you in, or truck you in?
Norman:
We came in on trucks, and it was a straight shot from Camp Roberts to up here. And I can only remember that there were about a dozen of us, so when I say trucks, it was probably one truck. I just don't remember a whole bunch more than that. And we went into West Portal for quarantine. We stayed there three weeks before we were assigned down here, to the gun batteries.
Martini: What kind of a reputation did going into the Coast Artillery have? Was it good duty, was it, did guys like it or, was it not enough action?
Norman: When I came in it just, well, I'd have to say that there were two groups. There was old Army and all the recruits. And there was, as far as the mixing is concerned, it was a long time before the two mixed. But the old Army kept being transferred out until, after a year or so, most of them were gone. And they were just transferred out, in ones and twos, and then of course the recruits kept coming in and replacing them.
Martini: Do you remember the date, when you got out here? Like you say you said enlisted in, and they're [crosstalk 00:04:28] within the three [crosstalk 00:04:28].
Norman: All I can tell you, it was, that it was, I don't remember the exact day, except that it was in May 1943.
Martini: May '43. What did it-
Mrs. Peddicord: I was just going to say, how long were you at Camp Roberts? Wasn't there a certain, so many weeks, or so long you have to stay there?
Norman: Yeah. About 60 days.
Martini: What did it look like out here, and what was going on? That was really the height of the war [World War II]. Describe, if you were out here, what would you encounter? Sentries, camouflage, barbed wire?
Norman: As far as the beach is concerned, it was… the whole length of the beach was completely covered with big coils of barbed wire. And I have a dim recollection of steel posts, buried in the sand, pointing out to sea.
Martini: For landing craft?
Norman: For landing craft, yeah.
Mrs. Peddicord: Didn't they have the camouflage out there, too? You know, the green and brown-
Norman: Not that I can recall, not out there.
Mrs. Peddicord: ... I thought I remembered it, over there.
Norman: I just don't remember it, I remember all the barbed wire, and I remember the posts for anti-landing craft.
Martini: But was the tunnel the only way in and out of here, at that time?
Norman: That's right.
Martini: Wow. Where there some-
Norman: The road was not cut in until, I'm going to guess somewhere around, sometime during '45.
Martini: The road over the hill, where we come in, there?
Norman: Yeah. I don't remember the road being there at all, before that.
Martini: McCullough Road, we would call it. Were there a lot of sentry posts and security out here?
Norman: Yes. In fact, I'd say that, that was probably most of our duty, except when we would pull our turn on the guns. And the sentry duty went anywhere from up around the gun batteries, down to the range section. To the gates, going up there. To over at Fort Berry, down where your office is. Along with that, we had to pull prisoner duty.
Martini: Explain what that was.
Norman: Well, we'd be assigned to a day of taking two or three of the prisoners and taking them out, just to police the areas and work them on small details. The prisoners there were just minor infractions. I mean, fellows that had been AWOL [Absent Without Leave] for 24 hours, and were assigned over there for anywhere from a week to a month. And they were the fellows that you lived with all the time, too [laughter].
Martini: "Hey, how you doing?"
Norman: Anything worse than that, they were transferred somewhere else.
Martini: When you talked about doing a lot of sentry duty, except when you were on the guns, did you go through a formal training of any type for working with the... You were at Battery Townsley, initially, the 16 inch?
Norman: Right.
Martini: Was it, like, on the job training-
Norman: Yes.
Martini: ... or was there a course, or anything?
Norman:
No, there were no courses. It was just, everything was on the job training. We were kind of, I guess we were picked by our backgrounds, because I got assigned to the maintenance section on the guns. And I'm sure the only reason I did, is because I was an apprentice machinist when I got out of high school for a couple of years before I went in the service. And so, I guess because of that, I was put on maintenance on the guns.
But we all had to train on drills on a regular basis. I won't say every day, but we were taken as groups and trained regularly, every week. And along with that, we'd have to pull our guard duties around the clock. And when we would go up on the, be assigned to the guns, we'd go up there for either 24 to 48 hours. Or we'd live in the tunnels.
Martini: You were on standby, in case...
Norman: Right. There was always crews up there.
Martini: When you said you went through drills, you mean loading and aiming the weapons?
Norman: Right.
Martini: Were you ever there, when they fired them?
Norman: Yes.
Martini: When we get up there, I want to talk about that.
Mrs. Peddicord: You want to fire it? [Laughter].
Norman: That gun's not there.
Martini: No. I understand it was quite an experience.
Norman: Yes, it was.
Martini: We're sitting in one of the two-story barracks, only a couple of cots in here, now. What would this room have been like in '43?
Norman: Well, the way you have the cots spread out here, you can get a rough idea of the number of people that were in here. There were about, I'd have to say, about two dozen people downstairs, two dozen men upstairs. Plus the noncoms [non-commissioned officers], and they were, I think they were two to a room.
Martini: The two small rooms at the...
Norman: Right.
Martini: Could you have things on, personal possessions on the wall? Pin-ups, or anything like that or was it [crosstalk 00:09:15]?
Norman: No. We weren't allowed to do any of that, in the beginning. Maybe they did later on, but not in the beginning. In your footlocker you could, but only in your footlocker.
Martini: How was it living with 24 other guys in a room this size?
Norman: Pretty confining [laughter]. You got so that, you knew them all pretty well. And everybody had their share of the work to do to keep the barracks cleaned up and scrubbed, and pull the latrine duty. And, we all took our turns. We had to go out on the long marches, and doing drill and calisthenics, and all of that stuff, every day. On weekends, they'd have ball games.
Martini: Where did you go for, like, calisthenics and exercise?
Norman: Most of it was right out there in your parking area.
Martini: That served as a parade ground, would you say, then?
Norman: Well, if you wanted to call it a parade ground, we never had parades out there [laughter]. But we had… we played ball out there, and did all of the calisthenics and workouts out there.
Martini: Were there formalized teams that would compete, between the different batteries and the different areas?
Norman: Yes. Yes and no. I mean, there were both. Just made up games, and then also, we had... I wasn't on them, but we had formalized baseball teams.
Martini: There was a newspaper that was put out, for the coastal defenses, I have a copy of it. And it makes reference to the Fort Cronkhite Tunneleers. I think a baseball team and bowling team?
Norman: Right.
Martini: Does that ring a bell?
Norman:
That was the baseball team. I can only remember one of the fellows that was on it, and his name was Aragon. And he was, he'd been drafted from, or rather, he was regular Army. And he'd come up from Los Angeles, and he was a semi-pro boxer and ballplayer. But he's the only one I can remember.
Martini: What was the Tunneleers, in reference to?
Norman: Well, I guess it was in reference to the gun batteries, where all the guns were underground. And when you were on duty, you had to live underground and bunk underground and eat underground. And as I say, it was only for 24 to 48 hour stretches. But…
Martini: So they'd rotate, between living up here and up there.
Norman: Yes. Right.
Martini: Did you have regular food up there?
Norman: Oh yeah, they'd truck it up. When we were on duty, they would truck it up. And besides that, separate from that, then you had guard duty, which was on a 24 hour basis. But that was for pulling posts, all around the outside. At that time, you were not inside the tunnels, on duty.
Martini: When you were doing guard duty, was the feeling that something might really happen, or was it just tramping around up in the hills?
Norman: Well, it was, back in '43 the feeling was you never knew when somebody was going to show up on the beaches. Although at that time, even on guard duty, they issued you one clip of ammunition. That was it. So they had all the ammunition here to issue, but you passed that clip from guard to guard, as you were relieved. And that was it. I mean, you had one clip [laughter].
Martini: So were you warned against more of, something coming in from the sea? Or were you concerned about the local populace?
Norman: No, it was mostly from the sea.
Martini: Was there any, I don't want to say tourists, not a good term. But, locals, walking, coming out here trying to get near it?
Norman: I never saw them. If there were, they sure didn't get down this far.
Martini: Just over the hills, there were dairy ranches. Did you ever have any interaction with those folks?
Norman: No. I never even, I never saw them. Never saw any people from them, at all. I can't even remember cattle being on this side of the hills.
Martini: What exactly… do you remember what battery you were assigned to, in the 6th Coast Artillery?
Norman: I'm not sure. It seems to me, it was Battery A, but I'm not sure. I just can't remember.
Martini: Were you two married at the time?
Norman: Yes.
Mrs. Peddicord: Two months [laughter].
Martini: Two months.
Norman: We were married in January of '43.
Mrs. Peddicord: And then the greetings came [laughter].
Martini: What was your feeling when you found out he'd been assigned in the backyard?
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh, it was wonderful. But then, it was funny, we didn't know until the end, that he was stamped unfit for overseas duty [laughter]. And we didn't know that until he got out, that it said that.
Martini: Was that medical, or?
Norman: Just for glasses.
Mrs. Peddicord: Glasses.
Martini: For glasses?
Mrs. Peddicord: That's all.
Martini: When did you get a chance to come out here? Because you mentioned, you visited him out here, on occasion?
Mrs. Peddicord: Yeah, I don't know how-
Norman: That was New Year's of, what, New Year's Day 1944?
Mrs. Peddicord: Whatever it says on that paper, I don't remember.
Norman: Because I got the flu, that winter of '43, and I spent about three and a half weeks in the hospital. And when I got out, I couldn't get a pass, so they let me bring her over for New Year's.
Mrs. Peddicord: And we'd come over for dances. And all I remember was, in the recon [reconnaissance] trucks and going through the tunnel. And I guess they took us to the end? No, I guess we went all the way to the city, huh? But I don't remember how I got home from there. But they would have a bunch of gals come in for these dances, every once in a while. I must not have worn my glasses because I don't remember any of it [laughter]. But he was so close to home that he got home more than I was invited here.
Martini: You got passes, pretty frequently?
Norman: Well, when I was with the 6th, no. You were on a regular rotation with everybody else for a 24 hour pass.
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh, it was after that.
Norman: And I couldn't get them very often. When I was transferred over to the radar outfit, and I was stationed in the outstations, they just gave us our Class A passes. And we were allowed to have so many men missing from the station at a time, and most of the fellows would have to depend on how much money they had, whether they took a pass. So I got a lot more passes than everybody else, simply because if I was off duty I could go home.
Mrs. Peddicord: How long were you actually here? In Cronkhite?
Norman: It was about, a little over a year. Just about, well, it was just about a year.
Mrs. Peddicord: Yeah.
Norman: About 12 months.
Martini: You said when you were put on the remote stations, that's when you went into radar.
Norman: Well, first, yeah. First of all, I went up to Mendell, and I was stationed up there for a while. Then I was stationed for about a year and a half up at de Lima.
Martini: Was that Point Reyes area? Okay.
Norman:
Yeah. Right. And then I went from there, down to Sharps Park [00:15:54], and we closed that station in '46. Two of us, there were only two of us that went down there, and we just wrapped it up. And then from there, I went up to Beale [Air Force Base] and was discharged.
Mrs. Peddicord: That's, how far away he… [laughter 00:16:07].
Norman: All just right around here.
Mrs. Peddicord: Yeah. But it didn't seem like that. At the time, you never knew.
Martini: When, how did you get into the radar from the fixed artillery?
Norman: I can only guess. I was told at the time, that I had experience with delicate instruments, because I… from being a machinist. And I'm guessing that, plus the fact that my aptitude scores were fairly high. And I think between the experience there and the fairly high scores on that, that I was investigated and then transferred over.
When I say investigated, I found out that there had been people in my home neighborhood, over in San Francisco, that were going around and been questioning all the neighbors about me. And I understand that they went down to work, and did some questioning down at work. And I had no idea what that was all about. I just found out that somebody was asking a lot of questions about me, and then all of a sudden, I was transferred over.
Martini: Was that because of the, radar was then new and high security?
Norman: I'm sure it was. It was completely new. And of course it was very, very secure in those days.
Martini: And you said that was under the Special Forces? The radar?
Norman: Well, I'm saying Special Forces. We were detached. We didn't belong to anyone. We were in the Headquarters Defense Command, yes. But we did not belong to any outfit. We were just assigned, certain people were assigned to different batteries.
Martini: At that time, was that when the radars, when they first went up? I believe they were camouflaged to look like water tanks?
Norman: That's right.
Mrs. Peddicord: Mm-hmm (affirmative). We were just talking about that.
Norman: They were all wood. No nails in them, the Army, all made wooden pegs. And they were, roughly, about 40 to 60 feet in the air.
Martini: And that was the, do you remember what model that was?
Norman: I've been trying to remember that on the way over today. And I cannot remember.
Martini: SCR-296? Or 269? 268? Is that... all the numbers, I know, I know [laughter]. But it was a surface craft detection-
Norman: It was for surface craft, right.
Martini: ... it wasn't, aircraft?
Norman: That's right. These were not. Our range was a little out beyond the Farrallones [group of islands about 20 miles from Point Reyes].
Martini: How did that system work? Was it just, each individual station calculated the range? Or was that also triangulation between the various radar stations?
Norman: It was triangulation because when our station was actually operating, we would call the... And I don't even know where it was, but we would call all of our readings into a central station. And so, I'm sure it was all by triangulation.
Martini: Did you triangulate for any individual installation or a battery? Or were you triangulating just general information that might be then be dispersed to another [crosstalk 00:18:59]?
Norman: It was to the central station, and then dispersed.
Martini: Did they give you [crosstalk 00:19:05]-
Norman:
Now, that's different. When we had the range finding stations, as you say, the gopher holes. That was different, that was directly to Battery Townsley. And we had the range stations. I don't remember any further than Stinson Beach. We did have one that was never used, that was right up there where, at Point Reyes, where I was stationed, but was never used. At least, when I was there.
Martini: The furthest they were apart could be about 20 miles.
Norman: Yes.
Martini: They had them all the way down, nearly to Half Moon Bay.
Norman: That's right. When we had to practice firing one of the guns, a couple of times, I went up to Stinson Beach, to the range station. But only when we were practicing.
Martini: Up at Stinson Beach and a couple of other locations where they used to have the semi-permanent radar, there were large underground concrete rooms, almost directly below the pylons that supported the radar. Is that what you would work in, when you were?
Norman: Right.
Martini: Was that where the scopes were, and what would have been in those rooms?
Norman:
Oh, you mean, yes. The scopes, all the equipment, all the radar equipment. The scopes, all of the banks of units themselves. If something went wrong with the equipment, we had spare units, and it was just a case of changing equipment. We did not do any of the repair on it at all. We'd just pull a unit out, put a new one in. And then it would be taken into, somewhere over across the Bay, down near Fort Scott. I can't even remember where we took them, now, but we did take them close to Fort Scott. And then we would just get new units and bring them back out.
Martini: It was kind of modular, plugin stuff?
Norman: Right. Exactly. Of course the units were about, roughly about three foot wide by about two foot deep, and about six inches thick. They were big monstrous things in those days.
Martini: They had big vacuum tubes?
Norman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martini: Did they have the magnetrons, then?
Norman: Not that I can recall.
Martini: What was the resolution like on those? Did you get a modern-day radar with a circular sweep where you could see individual dots for targets?
Norman: Right.
Martini: Or was this sine wave?
Norman: No, these were circular sweeps and the scopes were about 10 inches in diameter. And I'd say that the sweeps, I'm going to guess that it was somewhere around once a second, that you would get a sweep.
Martini: What kind of, was it real easy to recognize a target from just clutter?
Norman: All you would do is get a... Oh yes. You would get a definite blip for a ship. There wasn't any question that it was a ship.
Martini: Did you practice on coastal traffic?
Norman: We used to track everything into the harbor, and out.
Martini: Up there, I think they call that Hill 640, above Stinson Beach, where your radar was?
Norman: Well, Stinson Beach, I wasn't in that station.
Martini: You weren't in that station?
Norman: Uh-uh (negative).
Martini: Okay, the one up at Point Reyes-
Norman: Point Reyes. We always just referred to it as the Point Reyes Station.
Martini: ... Point Reyes Station?
Norman: I couldn't even tell you the number anymore. [Laughter].
Martini: So, you guys were pretty much on your own, up there. With the radar, and the guys that were in the sighting stations?
Norman: Up there, we were totally on our own, except for two officers that had the proper papers to come in. And they were the only ones we let in, unless they were bringing somebody with them.
Martini: Did you have a perimeter fence, that you took, guarding?
Norman: It was just like a ranch fence. It was not a chicken wire or anything like that. It was just a barbed wire ranch fence, but we did not let anybody come past the gates. Except those two officers.
Martini: How would you know if you were supposed to go into action? Telephone call come in, radio? Officer come screaming in [crosstalk 00:23:12]-
Norman:
Oh, yeah. We were in constant contact by phone and radio, both. And we were all, we all had our, if you want to call it that, the license for short wave, plus the telephones. So we were always, anytime that we were operating, we were always, which was most of the time, we were always in contact with the central station.
Martini: The fellows I've talked to who worked on the base end stations with scopes, have said that it was pretty maddening because I guess to prevent visible above-ground development, you weren't allowed to have a lot of amenities top-side, like a permanent shack or anything. So pretty much, you were underground or in a tent?
Norman:
That's right. Well, we had, at Point Reyes, we had, there was the water tower, which is common for all of them. And then of course, then the cement building underneath, where all of the radar equipment was. Then about 50 yards away, right into the... I'm sure they made the hill around it, but it was like a long wooden bunkhouse, would be like the lower floor of this one. And it had a kitchen, beds for about 14 men and that was about it. And then, once they made that log wooden farmhouse, if you want to call it a farmhouse, then they covered the whole hill over with dirt.
Martini: Really?
Norman: So we had windows but the windows were actually under an overhang, or under a roof, that was all covered over with dirt. So from the air, it looked like it was just part of the hill.
Martini: Talk about camouflage for a second. Did you guys end up doing a lot of camouflage work or maintaining it? Was there a lot around here? Nets and [crosstalk 00:24:57]?
Norman: On the gun batteries, there was.
Martini: What kind did they have up there?
Norman: They just had nets that went all the way across the front because everything else was under the hill. But as far as the openings for where the guns were, would stick out, we had big camouflage nets that had to be pulled back before the guns were extended out.
Martini: Were the batteries painted? Like dazzle camouflage, or mottled, or nondescript or, do you remember?
Norman:
I don't remember, because everything was underground, except for that one opening. I'm sure that they were the Army green but... [laughter].
Martini: There was a book, it was National Geographic, some woman paid a visit out here in early 1943 and wrote an article for National Geographic about San Francisco at war. And she wrote several pages about driving way out into the hills to visit the coastal fortifications [crosstalk 00:25:49].
Mrs. Peddicord: Huh.
Martini: It's hard to tell when she was just being creative, but she talked about artificial mountains that opened, and her Jeep driver drove her into it.
Mrs. Peddicord: I'll be darned.
Martini: And we have no idea what she's talking about.
Mrs. Peddicord: Where was she? She's not around, anymore, now?
Norman: I don't know if it would be this one up here, but of course they had the big double doors that would open up, where you could drive trucks into them, but they couldn't drive through the tunnels. You know, it was just to get them off the road, and that was about all. And that was just kind of a camouflaged overhang, that I can recall.
Mrs. Peddicord: Would they let her get in and do that in 1943?
Norman: [crosstalk 00:26:19].
Martini: That was a very carefully censored story.
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh, no [laughter].
Martini: Very [inaudible 00:26:22].
Mrs. Peddicord: Yeah. They did, there were...
Martini: Did the press come out, whenever you were here? Do you remember any press visits or dignitaries getting the red carpet tour?
Norman: Mm-mm (negative). Not at all.
Martini: Okay. We have a few carefully censored photographs, where the background was airbrushed out, that were taken-
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh? Which ones?
Martini: ... I have, The Chronicle [The San Francisco Chronicle] took a bunch of them. But you could tell someone was standing right behind the photographer saying, "Don't you dare move” [crosstalk 00:00:26:49]. [Laughter]. He didn't want anything in the background to give it away.
Mrs. Peddicord: Yeah, yeah.
Martini: [Crosstalk 00:26:51], okay.
Norman:
Okay. I can't remember any visitors like that. Army, lots of brass, yes. But along with that, there could have been correspondents.
Mrs. Peddicord: You never even took pictures, around here. Even of your barracks. [crosstalk 00:27:05].
Norman: They wouldn't let me, they wouldn't let me have a camera in here.
Martini: You couldn't even own a camera?
Norman: Mm-mm (negative). Couldn't have one in here.
Mrs. Peddicord: Yeah, they were really particular here.
Martini: One of the things that you gave us was that, the pillowcase cover, for the Coastal Artillery Corps. You said that that was, they sold those here at the PX [Post Exchange]?
Norman: Yes.
Martini: As souvenirs? Was that about the only type of really specific souvenir for the Harbor Defenses or were there other things also?
Norman: Oh, they had, I don't remember what kind of memorabilia they had. They didn't have a lot. They had very little.
Mrs. Peddicord: Where did you get me... I got a charm bracelet. And I had the little crossed cannons, on that.
Norman: I think that was at the PX [Post Exchange].
Mrs. Peddicord: Yeah. I forgot about that, for my charm bracelet. [Laughter].
Martini: Someone wanted me to ask you, do you remember where the PX [Post Exchange] was down here, among this maze of buildings?
Norman: It was down this end, I'd have to go out and look around and see if I could tell you that, which building was actually the PX [Post Exchange]. It was way down this end.
Martini: Right across from it was the fire station.
Norman: Right.
Martini: And the two-story building over there, was headquarters. With a question mark? Had a flagpole, out front.
Norman: Not to my recollection. Our battery headquarters was down over here, in just a small, one of the small buildings.
Martini: Was it… do you know how the chain of command went? The battery was the basic one. What was above that?
Norman: Well, as far as my recollections are, it went as far as the captain. Beyond that, I don't remember, I didn't associate with any in this area. I'm sure that there were, probably over in Berry, but not that I had anything to do with.
Martini: Don't remember any of the, "This battery's under this command, and this command answers to the Harbor Defenses," or any of that chain?
Norman: No.
Martini: You mentioned that the noncoms [non-commissioned officers] lived in these barracks, here. What about married officers? Where were they living?
Norman: From what I can recall, they lived up at West Portal.
Martini: There was housing up there, at West Portal?
Norman: Yeah.
Martini: When you refer to West Portal, when you drive in and out today, is that where the 1960s concrete buildings are?
Norman: That's the first group of buildings, west of the tunnel.
Martini: We call those the Capehart Houses, but that was that same location?
Norman: Okay. Well, that was West Portal.
Martini: That was West Portal? Okay.
Norman: Yeah, because going up this way there was, where you have all the horses now, that was all the maintenance for all of the trucks and Jeeps and everything else. In fact, I think that barn is still there, that was the big maintenance building for that. Then there was the firing range, east of that. And then when you went around the curve and on up, just a little bit, that's where West Portal was.
Martini: Yeah. Same area.
Norman: Yeah.
Martini: Okay. Yeah. You mentioned the horse stables, here. Actually that's a balloon hangar from the 1920s.
Norman: But that was used for the maintenance building, for all of the trucks and Jeeps and recons [reconnaissance vehicles].
Martini: Were the sheds outside, were those just coverage where the horses are now? Were those just covered sheds for vehicles, or was that searchlight or mobile, things?
Norman: I don't remember any mobile equipment in there, at all.
Martini: Do you remember a battery of mobile 155 caliber guns that were down here, for a while?
Norman: No, I don't.
Martini: Stuff came and went so fast, no one tracked a lot of this stuff. They have a picture of a battery of 155 guns in the parking lot. And, when was it? Yeah. I tell you. Want to take a drive up to the battery itself? Go inside it?
Norman: Yeah. I'd love to, yeah.
Martini: You got it.
[Inaudible 00:30:38] you take it from a category position?
Norman:
Not really. We all ran the scopes. Out at Point Reyes, my primary duty, along... I had to pull my duty, in the radar station. But along with that, I had to take care of all of the standby motors and generators. And I got stuck with that, because I was a machinist.
Martini: Machinist. Somehow, I got that [laughter]. [Crosstalk 00:31:07]. When we bring visitors in this barracks, they're always amazed at the latrine.
Norman: That was the first thing I looked at when I came in [laughter].
Mrs. Peddicord: I see it.
Martini: Yeah.
Norman: And you had already come on in.
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh.
Norman: Yeah, this looks just, exactly the same as all of them, down the line.
Mrs. Peddicord: Gee, I should take a picture. Oh my God. Boy, no privacy at all, huh?
Norman: Nope. You can set down in here, yeah.
Mrs. Peddicord: [Crosstalk 00:31:28].
Martini: No [inaudible 00:31:32]-
Norman: Yeah, there wasn't exactly much privacy here. [Laughter].
Mrs. Peddicord: Yeah, this is all stuff I never got to see.
Martini: You remember the little slots in the wall?
Norman: Oh, the razorblades? Yeah.
Martini: It's still full of them, too. [Laughter].
Norman: Is it? Really?
Martini: Found out the hard way. I was like, "What are ... ?"
Norman: And then, "Uh oh." [Laughter].
Martini: [Inaudible 00:00:31]
Norman: Yeah, I forgot about that, till you reminded me.
Martini: I ask that... with all the planning that went on, it amazes me. They just cut a hole in the wall, and just shoved the razorblades between the studs.
Norman: Now that, looking at this, and the way the windows are, that reminds me, all the windows were all blacked out when we were living here.
Martini: Oh, even the ones in here?
Norman: Oh, yeah.
Martini: Oh.
Norman: Yeah, because we had all the blackouts going, so those windows all had to be blacked out. No light at night.
Martini: Just painted over with black paint or...?
Norman: From what I recall, we'd just paint it. I don't remember covers over them.
Martini: Do you remember, where these barracks... had they been painted inside yet, by the time you got here? Or was it all still rough, exposed wood?
Norman: No, it looked just about like it does right now. They were all whitewashed. And periodically, we'd have to not only in the cleaning, but periodically, if they were too bad, then we'd have to start whitewashing.
Martini: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Norman: Mop the floors down regularly, as you can tell by looking at the wood. That's well water.
Martini: Okay. So Ed, the-
Mrs. Peddicord: We got to call up [Theodore] Lubjeg . Was he here, did you say?
Norman: Well, he was stationed up in [Fort] Mendell.
Martini: Is he still living in the area?
Norman: I lost track of him. But he lived in the East Bay.
Martini: Oh, great.
Mrs. Peddicord: He lived about three miles from us.
Martini: We should get a reunion together sometime, a bunch of you guys.
Norman: I'll give him a call, and see if he's still out there.
Mrs. Peddicord: We used to send him Christmas cards.
Norman: Let me call Theodore [Lubjeg], see if I can find out if he still lives out there.
Mrs. Peddicord: Last time we saw him was 30 years ago, and yet they lived that close.
Norman: He was not from here, but he stayed here after the war [World War II]. Was the company headquarters.
Martini: OK, the first building that we're looking at right now?
Norman: Yeah.
Mrs. Peddicord: And the next one over.
Norman: It was this one.
Martini: That's building 1049. We never come up with names for these things. We still use the numbers.
Norman: Still use the numbers?
Martini: Yeah.
Norman: Okay. Well this one was company headquarters, and then the smaller one down here was the day room.
Martini: Building 10-
Mrs. Peddicord: Maybe that's where we had dances.
Martini: Building 1050. And what would a day room be?
Norman: Oh, they had tables in there, where you could go down and play cards, just sit around and chew the fat, and whatnot. But if you wanted to get out of the barracks, you'd come down here usually.
Mrs. Peddicord: Maybe we went from there to eat that time.
Norman: They had magazines in there, and you could go down there and do reading. Mostly, it was used for playing cards.
Martini: Yeah. And you can see, there's a couple of buildings missing, too. They got torn down before someone decided these buildings actually were now a historic district.
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh, that's great [inaudible 00:03:03].
Martini: Well, there's the kid. There's plenty more in the Presidio, if we move over here.
Mrs. Peddicord: Yeah, now that's a crime.
Norman: I think those were barracks. Because I... you know, that's always bothered me, because I definitely remembered that there were three rows of barracks.
Martini: And it was a fence and a gate here at the foot of the hill, you mentioned?
Norman: [Laughter]. See where those people are right now?
Martini: Yeah, the pipe gate.
Norman: There was the gate there, and that was one of the .. first trip over here, that was one of the things that I looked for right away. But it's gone. I had my mark on the top of the post, where we were changing. I told you we had to change clips in the rifles when we were relieved.
Martini: Right.
Norman: Well, that night, I was on duty on that gate. When we changed, one of the cartridges had slipped into the chamber, and we always had to point it into the sky and fire it, just to make sure that nothing was in. And I had something in. So I left my trademark right in the top of the post. [Laughter].
Martini: Right up here, on the top of the bluff, there's a small little square underground concrete structure. And it appears to be a cleared area. Maybe there was a temporary gun mount? Do you remember anything up there?
Norman: Yes. There was a 50-caliber gun up there. And somewhere up there, and I can't remember where, we also had one of the range stations.
Martini: Rain? Like just weather?
Norman: No, the range.
Martini: Oh, range.
Norman: Yeah.
Martini: Excuse me.
Norman: But I can't remember just where it was, but it was somewhere this side of the gun. But right about there is where we had the 50-caliber gun. And that was a concrete emplacement.
Martini: One of the ones like you described? The hexagonal box in the ground?
Norman: Right, right. Right.
Mrs. Peddicord: Are you lose-
Norman: And the only restriction we had on that was that they had the pipes, to limit your travel, so we couldn't point them back at the barracks.
Mrs. Peddicord:
Are you losing some of the land along here? It looks like, from when we walked up here, 52 years ago, that it's...
Norman: The trees, if I remember correctly, it was the range station. The plotting room.
Martini: The main planning room.
Norman: Yeah.
Martini: Got it. Is that an area you ever went in and out of?
Norman: Oh, yeah. I was... half the time I was here, I was with the plotting crew.
Martini: Okay. Now, this thing, both of the portals to this are equipped with airlocks, and they're gas-proofed. Did you routinely use the airlocks, or would that only be if there'd been a gas attack?
Norman: That was probably only if there was an attack because we didn't do drills that I remember.
Martini: There are still bunks hanging from the walls inside this thing. That would have been for the crew that had the duty?
Norman: Right. When you had to pull duty, then you'd stay right here. I was on the guns for about, oh, roughly six months. And then I was with the plotting section for about six months. And it was actually from the plotting section that I was transferred over into the radar group.
Martini: What can you tell me about trees? The trees all seem to have grown up around the installations, but in photos during the war [World War II], it seems to have been barren, my thought was probably intentionally, so as not to draw attention. Did you guys plant trees, or remember, did they grow?
Norman:
No, we did not. Not that I recall. If they were planted, they were planted late in the war [World War II]. I don't recall our doing any planning like that at all. We would try to keep it as much natural habitat as we could. And we were not allowed to just tramp around the hills and make paths or things like that. We had to stay on the roads, or stay on particular paths to a gun emplacement, or something like that.
Martini: Because they didn't want to give away the idea that activity was taking place?
Norman: Right. So any activity had to be down here, in the barracks area.
Martini: Would the portals have just been open like that? Or would this have been... or they would have had nets and all over it?
Norman: Everything like this had nets over them, but there were no... the doors were further back in. I think those are still the original doors back in there. Yeah, those are still the original doors. But out here, we would have camouflage nets over the opening.
Martini: Was the road... was it a paved road or was it a rock road?
Norman: No, it was a paved road. At least from what I remember, it was a paved road. I don't remember it being just a rock road.
Martini: When you were changing the duty up at the battery, and out of the barracks, did you walk? Did they truck you? March in formation?
Norman: We either walked or ran.
Martini: Or ran. [Laughter].
Norman: No, they didn't feel we needed transportation. [Laughter].
Martini: What job did you have down in the buck room?
Norman: Most of the time, I was on the phones. I did some of the actual plotting, but most of the time, I was on the phones. They'd train us for plotting, but that was usually a .. they usually gave that job to the sergeants in the section. And they were very jealous of that, so they would show us how, but that's about as far as it went.
Martini: When you were down in the plotting room, you say on the phones, you'd actually be getting the bearings from the individual stations, and relaying it to the guys with the arms on the table?
Norman: Right. Right. It was just like a large drafting machine, with the right angle arms on them, and they would just keep marking in the numbers, and then drawing the lines.
Curry: They'd draw it right on the plot board?
Norman: Yes.
Martini: There's a piece of paper or something underneath it.
Norman: That's right. It wasn't like it was glass that was erasable. They actually would use charts.
Martini: And I take it there was two men on the plot board that put in the information, and I suppose others that read it out?
Norman: Seems to me that there were four phones. I wouldn't swear to that. I think you're right that there were either two or three on the plotting boards.
Martini: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh, look at the graffiti.
Martini: Let me try to go up to the other tunnel portal, which is up ahead.
Norman: Uh-huh ( affirmative). Right.
Martini: That's the one with the long approach.
Mrs. Peddicord: You had to walk all the way up here?
Norman: Oh, sure.
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh my God. [Laughter].
Martini: Did you usually go into the gun positions, or did you use these center doors?
Norman: We used the center doors.
Martini: You went in this way? I'm kidding. Now, that brought you in through the generator room itself? That was in the very center of the mountain?
Norman: Yeah.
Martini: Did those generators... were those routinely operating, or were those backup in case the utilities went out?
Norman: They were not used constantly. They were used as backups, but I can't remember how much they were actually run.
Martini: Would it pretty much... pretty noisy? The vibrations? Was that disconcerting to have those running?
Norman: You know, I can't remember that. I just don't remember anything about what they were like. The noises would amplify so much, but then the rooms were so thick in the walls, if they kept the doors closed, not much noise would go through the tunnels. And they had doors at various sections, so that the different sections could be closed off. Or all wide open.
Mrs. Peddicord: You and David walked up, yeah.
Martini: This was before the park, you mean?
Norman: Right, right.
Mrs. Peddicord: Yeah.
Martini: You could still get in these?
Norman: Right. Of course, by then, everything was gone, but the doors were wide open. [Keys jingling].
Mrs. Peddicord: Was that 25 years ago, David left? That was when he'd go with us, so that means he must've been about 12 or 13.
Norman: At the oldest, yeah.
Mrs. Peddicord: Yeah.
Martini: Why did they have you use the back doors, rather than use the doors into the guns themselves?
Norman:
I don't know. Except that when you went in there, of course, all the bunks and everything were all along the walls, so I guess we'd bring up our packs with us when we come up. But there was very, very little foot traffic allowed in front of the guns.
Martini: Did you have a particular assigned bunk, or did you just take what you came to as you came in?
Norman: From what I recall, you took whatever was available when you came in.
Martini: Well, look at that. Someone's-
Norman: Because the crews were changing regularly.
Martini: Someone's nicely allowed us.
Norman: Yeah. [Keys jingling].
Martini: Not that I really like seeing these-
Mrs. Peddicord: Is it supposed to be open?
Martini: Oh, no. [Laughter].
Norman: No.
Martini: But the teenagers, nicely, leave it open for us every chance they get.
Norman: Oh.
Martini: Thank you. Yeah, we're standing outside the entrance to casemate number one. And you were saying that you didn't usually approach it this way, or see it?
Norman: Most of my memory is going in from the other tunnel, not on this side.
Martini: This long access tunnel here, is this where your bunks were?
Norman: Yes.
Curry: Were they knocked down through the tunnel, going to the other-
Norman: Oh, they were on the other side, and down through that tunnel, too. They were all hinged, right to the wall.
Curry: Yes.
Norman: Except when you were actually sleeping, they would be folded up and chained right to the wall.
Curry: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you know how many men were stationed here at the time? How many bunks there were?
Norman:
No, except ... the only thing I can tell you is that there were long stretches of [crosstalk 00:12:57] but I can't help with the number of people. [Wind blowing].
Martini: There's always a breeze blowing through this thing.
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh, you're not kidding.
Norman: There was always a breeze blowing through it then, too.
Martini: Did they have this tunnel blocked off?
Norman: From what I remember, there was always solid doors.
Martini: Solid doors?
Norman: Yeah. I don't remember these, like this.
Mrs. Peddicord: Are those holes? Well, they're just small. Well, what are these holes here for? Maybe this is where it was.
Martini: No, we suspect, because they're all along the walls, that this is where the bunks-
Norman: These are where the bunks were.
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh. Oh, oh, oh.
Martini: We're looking at the vertical lines of holes, where, quite obviously, there was either wood or steel attached. And this is where the hinged bunks were.
Norman: Yeah. They were all steel bunks.
Mrs. Peddicord: Well, then it must've been closed off.
Martini: Two high?
Norman: Yes. They were all two high, and they went for a long stretch along here. I'm sure we can see by the holes, but it was a long... I just recall a long stretch of bunks along here.
Martini: And there was a breeze, then, too.
Norman: Yes, there was. [Laughter].
Mrs. Peddicord: Well, you didn't sleep in this, did you?
Norman: When we were on duty.
Mrs. Peddicord: I mean with all the air coming through here?
Norman: Oh, sure.
Mrs. Peddicord: Jeez, no wonder you had pneumonia. [Laughter]. [Inaudible 00:14:13]. Oh, you couldn't.
Norman: Yes, you did.
Martini: Well, I... when we first took over some of these batteries, there was plywood bolted over the grates, and that may explain why they seemed to be solid doors.
Norman: Well, that's... yeah, I can't say that they were steel doors, except that I remember they were closed.
Mrs. Peddicord: You would know, if you went to sleep in this place.
Norman: Yeah, but I can remember walking through here. I can remember the wind blowing through. Now, at night, the doors were probably closed. I just don't remember.
Martini: So you looked just right on down this access tunnel, right at the breach of the gun?
Norman: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Martini: To our left right here, this is the main lateral tunnel that goes through. You see, we now have it closed off. Okay. And this is where the ammunition magazines-
Norman: I was going to say, down through there is where the powder rooms and the ammunition was.
Martini: And there would have been more bucks still, down there?
Norman: Yes. My recollection is that the bunks were down at the other end, though. I don't remember them being up at this end.
Mrs. Peddicord: This is nice, down here. [Laughter]. [Inaudible 00:15:23].
Martini: This is a little small room, that parallels the main tunnel. We can walk around to the other side, because they've nicely broken into this, too.
Norman: Yeah.
Martini: Do you remember-
Norman: I can see that.
Martini: You remember what use this room would have had?
Norman:
I don't remember it being used as a room at all. I think that was an access to... gee, I don't remember. I'm getting confused now, as to what... it may have been where they kept the next charges of powder and shells.
Martini: Ready to roll out?
Norman:
Just ready to roll right out to the guns, because we never had to go all the way back to bring them out. It was always right close, very handy. And back here, they'd never keep anything in here, if possible, including people. Because when the gun would fire, whatever was there would get knocked all over the place. And if people were walking up when the guns we fired, either coming through the doors there or here, you-
Mrs. Peddicord: This is where-
Martini: Watch out for this.
Norman: Yeah, watch out for that.
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh, yeah.
Martini: We're standing right now at the gun pit itself.
Norman: Yeah. But if you were walking through the doors when the guns went off, it would take you right off your feet, and lay you flat on the floor.
Martini: When you actually fired, where... if they didn't like you standing around here, would they clear the whole casemate of men? And move them back into the tunnels? Or where would everybody stand?
Norman: You stand on the sides.
Martini: On the sides?
Norman: Yeah. But in fact, as much as possible, you did not want to be walking in the tunnels. Because the pressure going through the tunnels was just terrific.
Martini: All the doors inside are still stenciled, "Door to remain open whenever guns are firing."
Norman: Right. It'd blow the doors off.
Martini: It would blow the doors off?
Norman: That's what they were afraid of. I've never seen it happen, but the doors were always open, and it was a lot of pressure to get out.
Martini: Was it a bang? Was it a whoomp? Was it a huge concussion? Did the ground shake? What was it like?
Norman: Everything would shake, and it wasn't a bang, it was more of just a big pressure roar. It was not a sharp, staccato type of repercussion at all.
Martini: What about being outside the casemate when the gun went off? Obviously, you wouldn't want to be, but were there safety warnings about being anywhere in the front area when the firing took place?
Norman: No. Not that I can recall, except the only ones that would be out there would be ones that would be out there for a purpose, which was primarily for the 30-caliber guns that were all over the top of here.
Martini: There's still a couple of, yeah, the pits up there for it.
Norman: Are there?
Martini: Yeah. When the… Did you ever use the overhead rails, and the chain hoists, for moving the shells, or did they pretty much come out on the big carts?
Norman: No. You also had the... inside there, you had the, all of them, the chain hoist. Out here-
Martini: Well, they-
Norman: They had all of them out here, and I was just trying to remember how they were placed, because you had to use them to get them into the slot, into the tray where they were fed right into the chamber, into the breach. I don't remember which way they ran, though. [Laughter].
Martini: I've heard that using them to move all the way from the magazine out here, they tended to jam because of the weight and going through all the switches. And most of the time they just threw them right on the cart.
Norman: That's right. My recollection is that they were always run out on the carts. Then they were just picked up and swung right into the breach.
Martini: This was all hydraulic, and electrical operate, all the aiming, correct?
Norman: Yes. Yeah. That's what I was curious about. That whole back there goes way back inside, if I remember correctly. And that's where the recoil mechanisms, all the big recoil cylinders were.
Martini: Back-
Norman: Remember that? Remember that story I told you about the sergeant that [inaudible 00:19:45].
Mrs. Peddicord: I got it.
Norman: Oh.
Mrs. Peddicord: I don't know how to put it in.
Norman: Remember the story I told you about the sergeant that was outside while this other guy and I were down inside, trying to get the recoil mechanism out?
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh, and you went in?
Norman: Yeah. No, that's not... that is not the hole. So it must have been just that it was down in the pit itself.
Martini: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. So it could aim up, you know, at an angle. And-
Norman: We had to drag it out of a little tunnel, and then we had to angle it up, and just snake it around, and then lift it straight out, on end.
Martini: Oh, some of the recoil-
Norman: The recoil mechanism, yeah.
Martini: Okay.
Mrs. Peddicord: How much water is in here? How much lower did it go?
Norman: Not much.
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh.
Martini: Maybe three feet, at most. So you actually had to go down into this thing underneath to do the maintenance on it?
Norman: Right.
Martini: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Norman:
And the only reason I remember the story is that he was one of the ... in fact, I can still remember his name. His name was Crushane [00:20:39]. And he was a buck sergeant, and he knew nothing about mechanics. And this other fellow and I had to go down and take it out. And he got tired of waiting for us to get it all slung and get ourselves out of the way. And he told the guys to go ahead and start pulling. [Camera noises]. And he almost killed us. Because when he started pulling, both of us just splattered ourselves to the side, as it started snaking out. That's the only time in my life I can ever remember really telling off a sergeant. We both can come out of there like greased lightning.
Martini: How often did they have real live firing? Was it... ?
Norman: I can only remember about half a dozen times that we actually fired at targets.
Martini: How accurate?
Norman: Usually, I would say, by the third shot, we would be hitting the target. And most of the time, it was you'd straddle one side, and then plot to straddle the other side, and then plot to hit. That was the normal pattern that you'd set up. Now, once you were using the radar, I can't tell you, because I was never on the guns at that point.
Martini: Did a lot of brass turn out to watch the firings? Was that a big event?
Norman: Yes. There were a lot of people around. That's about all I can tell you is yes, there were a lot of people around.
Martini: Uh-huh (affirmative). When the… Okay, this is a story someone else told me. Tell me if this is lore, is that brass would come, and you said you shouldn't stand in certain places, the concussion could blow you off your feet?
Norman: There, over there.
Martini: And that's where the crew would tell the brass-
Norman: The idea was try to get them to walk through, just before we fired. That's not lore. That is- [Laughter].
Martini: That is? Ah, oh, great.
Norman: There's a basis to it.
Martini: Did you do any of the famous things, like plug your ears and open your mouth at the concussion?
Norman: Yeah. And in those days. You didn't have any earmuffs, so you would do just that. Yes, you would try to keep your mouth open, and all you could do is just cover your ears with your hands.
Martini: Right. Right. Over here on the wall, it still has stenciled all the crew position, or the crew roster.
Norman: Uh-huh (affirmative).
Martini: Keeping an eye out for that manhole.
Norman: Yeah.
Martini: It's down there at the bottom of the pit. We dig it out, we put it here, the kids take it off and throw it in. It's kind of a local tradition. [Laughter].
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh, dear.
Martini: Yeah. But you can see, there are as many as 35 positions. Would it take that many guys?
Norman: There were a lot of fellows all around, because you had to figure that, let’s see, on the gun itself, there were probably somewhere around 10 men, just doing different things on the gun. The rest of them were either the commanders, standing over the side, on the phones. And also then running the ammunition. So it took, yeah, it took a large number of people to do it.
Martini: Chief of section, gun commander on down. What would your position have been? Were you considered a loader or just an artillery man? Or did they have a specific position description?
Norman: No. No. When you were with a crew, you'd be assigned to do a certain thing. I didn't get any of the fancy things, like actually operating the hand wheels on the gun. But most of what I did was running the ammunition and powder, and helping to load it into the breaches. I would either go in there or loading the breaches, over here.
Martini: But how can-
Norman: And one of the things that was interesting is one chore I got, that I had to do about three times, was we had to grease the barrels regularly. And the way you'd grease the barrels of the guns was they would tie a rope, they would shoot a rope through the barrel, and then you would tie it around your ankles. And you would start out at the muzzle end, and they would drag you backwards, with your arms over your head, and a pail of grease in your hand, and a paint brush. And you would paint the barrel with grease as you were dragged backwards.
Martini: You're not kidding are you?
Norman: No, I'm not kidding at all. I could fit in the barrel then. I don't think I could now. [Laughter].
Martini: That sounds like something out of a bad joke.
Norman: No, absolutely not.
Martini: They'd pull you through?
Norman: I was pulled through. [Laughter].
Martini: Oh, brother. Cloth ... nevermind.
Norman: And then usually, they'd pull you through on your back, and you'd just drag the grease bucket with one hand and the paint brush in the other end, and you're always painting around, around, and back of you, like that.
Mrs. Peddicord: I suppose you're on the back so your buttons didn't get caught on the rifling?
Norman: I guess so. We always did it on our backs, because it was easier to paint overhead, I just thought. [Laughter].
Martini: Great. I just want to go back in, because when we bring people in here, I like to tell them what it was like when the thing fired. You said you weren't supposed to stand there or there, because that's where the concussion is-
Norman: Not in the tunnel entrances, right.
Martini: Not in the tunnel entrances.
Norman: You got to the side, so that any repercussion in back of the guns was not going to knock you down.
Martini: So if the gun was, say, straight out to sea, would you be okay against the sidewall or the back wall? As long as you weren't in the direct line of the tunnel?
Norman: Right. You tried not to be anywhere in the back are when the gun was going off.
Martini: How did they actually do it? Was it a lanyard? Was it a trigger on the carriage? Was it done by someone down in the plotting room? How did it actually fire?
Norman: No, no. It was done by lanyard.
Martini: By lanyard.
Norman:
And I don't know the hookup on it. I can't tell you what the lanyard was connected to, but that's the way it was done. And it was controlled by the firing officer. And there were generally... I don't remember exactly what it was, how many times they would warn, but they would shout out about three or four warnings, so that everybody could get out of the way. Because that was a lot of pressure behind those guns.
Martini: Would the call go down the halls to the magazines, too, so everyone would stand by and not be out in the hallways?
Norman: Well, it must have, because we all heard it when they were shouting.
Martini: Was there one of those infamous time interval bells dinging in here? And you'd get fired on the ring of the bell?
Norman: I don't remember that.
Martini: With two guns in the battery, did you ever fire simultaneously or would that been courting disaster?
Norman: I don't recall ever firing simultaneously.
Martini: One after the other, then? And how long would it take to reload?
Norman:
If I gave you a figure, I'd be guessing. The only thing I can tell you, it was very fast. We had it timed down to just a minute, to minute and a half. I'm going to guess it was somewhere around one to two minutes, to swab the gun out, because you had to run a swab all the way through, to get all the-
Martini: All the way through?
Norman: All the way, all of it. The burnt particles out. And after that was done, then it went very fast, to load the shell and the powder bags.
Martini: Were these guns equipped with the automatic compressed air, that shot the pressed air out the barrel after the moment of firing, to clear the breach a bit?
Norman: Yeah. And then they had the rams that pushed all the way through, for cleaning it.
Martini: All the way through?
Norman: Yeah.
Martini: Okay. These guns, I know, didn't last that long. I think 300 or 400 shots, then they started to lose their accuracy. And I know they husbanded the amount of shots they made. Each time they fired, was there a lot of cleanup and maintenance because of the powder residue and wear on the barrel?
Norman: Well, I'd say yeah.
Martini: Would be-
Norman: We were dragged down through the barrel, so... [Laughter].
Martini: Yeah.
Norman: Yeah, that was common. When they were, yes, you had to clean up the whole thing, from one end to the other.
Martini: Did the paint thin off the barrels?
Norman: I don't remember that.
Martini: None of them survived, so stupid question, what color were they? Were they the same green as the rest of the metalwork up here?
Norman: I was trying to remember that, and I do not remember their... I don't remember their being painted. I've been trying to... you guys were talking about that earlier. And I just cannot remember their actually being painted. I've been trying to get that in my mind, but...
Martini: How did they keep the casemate? Was this spit shined? Or was it like the ambiance of a machine shop?
Norman: Mostly, it was all greased. It was not spit and polish. You had oil and grease all over everything. And I think a lot of the reason for that was that because of the sea air blowing in here all the time, you had to do that.
Martini: There was only a partial shield, right? The whole casemate wasn't closed off.
Norman: Your nets were dragged over the whole, the whole area at night. And usually they were controlled from the top and the bottom, and done manually. But they were taken and then pulled back by the men. They weren't on cables or chains, that I can recall.
John Martini There wasn't a... but I mean surrounding the gun. In the photos, there's a partial shield, but most of this was still open. Am I correct? Between the shield and the concrete walls?
Norman: When you say open, you're not referring to the camouflage nets?
Martini: No. I'm talking about-
Norman: No. Most of it was open. And then just covered over with the nets.
Martini: Going around to the other one?
Mrs. Peddicord: It's all the way around the back.
Martini: The bolts overhead are for the railings that...?
Norman: For the rails, yeah.
Martini: Yeah.
Mrs. Peddicord: Oh.
Norman: And down through here was where the tunnels were, where we kept the shells and the powder bags.
Mrs. Peddicord: In here.
Norman:
And they would run them out on carts. They had carts, and very well, I can remember how high they were exactly. The carts were about yea high.
Martini: Waist high?
Norman: Yeah. And then they'd run them out here on the carts, and they'd put them somewhere along in here, and pick them up, and then load them over into the breach area. And then it got so that we were running the cart all the way out, and then just picking them right up at the gun.
Martini: And you described, it was cold up here, and you're on duty for what, 48 hours?
Norman: 24 to 48 hours.
Martini: 24 to 48 hours?
Norman: Yeah.
Martini: What was the worst part of being up here, aside from nothing happening?
Norman: Boring. [Laughter].
Martini: Boring? Did you have a rec room or anything up here? Did you sit or-
Norman: No. No. When I say boring, it was boring during the night. During the day, you were always going through drills and all kinds of exercises, but at night, it was very boring.
Martini: Radios? Or did you read? Play cards?
Norman: I can't remember ever bringing radios in. And the lights that you were allowed, it was just a few light bulbs down through the tunnel, enough to see by-