National Heritage Areas Podcast Season 4 (2021)

The National Heritage Areas Podcast returns for Season 4 in 2021 and 2022. This season focuses on key communications themes of Climate Resilience and Tribal Affairs. In the first two episodes, we discuss issues related to the ongoing Climate Crisis and cultural resource preservation with guests including NPS experts and National Heritage Area leaders. Next, we join regional leaders in Tribal Affairs to discuss Indigenous engagement & histories within the NHA program.

Stream, download, or read the transcripts of Season 4 episodes of the NHA Podcast below.

Enjoying the podcast? Be sure to check out the other seasons!

• Episode 4.1 - Introduction to Climate Change Adaptation Strategy

  
  

  NHA Communications Coordinator Patrick Shea and Region 1 Program Manager Peter Samuel discuss adapting cultural resource strategy adaptation for a changing climate with Region 1 Coastal Landscape Adaptation Coordinator Dr. Amanda Babson.
  Audio Transcript

  [Music] Patrick: Hi, welcome everyone to the 2021 season of the National Heritage Areas podcast. My name’s Patrick Shea, and I’m here today with Dr. Babson and Peter Samuel to discuss climate change in the Northeast coastal landscapes. Dr. Amanda Babson is the Coastal Landscape Adaptation Coordinator for the National Park Service, for the Interior Region 1 (North Atlantic-Appalachian) Region. She is based out of the URI Bay Campus. Peter Samuel, our other guest today, is the National Heritage Area Program Manager for Region 1 of the National Park Service, out of Philadelphia. And, would you both be able to give a little of an introduction and an overview of what your work entails? We can start with you, Peter. Peter: Thanks, Patrick. Yes. So glad to have this podcast season starting again. It’s been a great, great opportunity to get more information about the heritage areas. And, you know, I’m the program manager for 23 National Heritage Areas in our region, Northeast, Maine to Virginia, and this year we’ve been trying to really focus on a couple of themes. And one of those themes is to provide support and more emphasis to all of our heritage areas partners, is to focus a little bit more on the potential impacts of climate change, and what it means to all of their resources, you know, not just the natural resources but also the cultural resources, wat the potential impacts might be, and how they’re challenged to, as they move forward, make adjustments and prepare their partners, also, better for those potential impacts. And I’m, you know, so lucky to have Amanda Babson, who is our climate change specialist in the region, join me today, so that we could have a little conversation about it. Amanda: Thanks, I’m excited to be part of this conversation. So, by Coastal Landscape Adaptation Coordinator, people often ask, ‘What does that mean?’ and, I help coastal parks adapt to climate change. And I am based in the Northeast region, same as Peter, but I’m also part of the National Park Service Climate Change Response Program, so I have colleagues in other parts of the country, and who work nationwide, on helping parks with climate adaptation. And also, “landscape” is in my title because, to do climate adaptation we can’t just think within parks; we need to think at a large landscape scale and so, trying to work with other partners as we tackle these challenges. And my background is in oceanography. So, while I primarily help with, starting out, coastal parks and partners, I also have been helping other parks in the region who are inland who have also been addressing climate change. Peter: Thanks, Amanda. And I think, you know, so, so important for our heritage areas as partners, and larger landscapes—and some of our heritage areas include parks within their boundaries…as an example, a great example of a coastal heritage area that’s also connected with a park is Essex Heritage Area and they’re connected with Salem Maritime. And I know they’ve been—I think we’ll be talking with them later in this series— Patrick: Mmhm. Peter: --because they’ve had some issues associated with, you know, changes in the climate and the effects on the coast. But I guess, you know, Amanda, if you could give maybe an overview of just some of the potential impacts that not only parks and heritage areas may experience on the coast but also in other--inland, as you suggested, that you’ve been working with parks who are inland. I know there’s impacts on changes in temperature. Some of our forests are being affected, and other things…I know storms are worse. So, maybe if you could just kind of give us an overview of what some of those impacts have been or will be as we look forward to the future. Amanda: Sure. So, I’ll start with some of the impacts related to sea level rise, to start out with the coastal focus. And the consequences range from high tide and flooding, to increase in storm flooding. And in the Northeast, storms that we’re dealing with aren’t just hurricanes, but Nor’easters. So winter storms and how, at higher sea level, we’re seeing more impacts from those, and then, increased erosion. We’re also seeing changes in groundwater, so, for coastal areas that may be saltwater intrusion, but also the depth of the water table. And these impacts can be seen in some places with flooding at the highest tides of the year, which may begin to happen more at the monthly high tides soon in places like, you were saying, Salem Maritime National Historic Site, where Derby Wharf sees flooding that is happening on the highest high tides of the year. That may end up soon being at the twice a month, and might then get to twice a day. We’re also seeing warming. That is something that affecting things like the timing of seasonal events, like when species bloom, but also pest life cycles, and how invasive species impact our forests, for instance. Warming also affects human health, and this is important, such as heat waves, and how that affects our ability to work within our parks, and with our partners, and also how to recreate safely. In the Northeast we’re also seeing increased heavy rain events, so with these storms one of the big impacts is more precipitation. And this can do things like affect water quality, and also interacts with sea level rise to compound flooding. We can expect to see continued accelerated sea level rise, more warming, more storm impacts. And this will affect our lives, in how we need to redesign our infrastructure, or change our shoreline access. Peter: Wow. You know, when you go through the list like that, it’s really in some ways overwhelming. I mean, you talk about pests, invasive species, heat waves affecting peoples’ health, heavy rainstorms. It’s just…you know. How…I guess, when you go out to a park or partners, besides providing information to folks, what can you suggest? You know, how do people, you know, prepare themselves in this kind of situation? Amanda: Yeah that’s a great question that yeah, we don’t want to get overwhelmed. We’re already doing all sorts of management actions to deal with the many issues we’re dealing with right now. And we can, if we understand these, there are things we can do to adapt. So, the Park Service, working with partners, needs to understand how these changes are affecting park resources. And then we can use that information to plan how we can adapt to these future conditions, so that we can protect he resources as well as things like the visitor experience as long as possible. And also how we can plan on, you know, allowing that some things may not always be the way they were, and prepare for that. Peter: Yeah. You know I—and you’re probably aware of this—there was a story recently in the newspaper about Acadia and how their forest land has changed due to temperature changes and climate change. And that they’re no longer kind of in the mode of, ‘we’re going protect and preserve everything’ but now we need to kind of adjust and evolve as things evolve in the environment. And I guess that’s probably part of your message as well when you go to parks and, when they’re thinking about resources. Amanda: Yeah. So, Acadia’s a great example because they have been—they started out getting the information they needed, and they did a Scenario Planning workshop, where they looked at, we don’t know which is, you know, the most likely future scenario, but we’re going to look across a range of potential futures. And then for some of them, they recognized that, we can’t keep things the same, and they’re starting to prepare for a different future so that, you know, following pest outbreaks with trees, what are the tree species that may do well there to do for restoration, and how do they work to make sure that invasive species don’t fill in that gap. They’ve also been thinking about how some of their infrastructure is impacted by flooding. And actually just earlier this week they had, with a major rainstorm, they had a bridge wash out and that affected campground access. So, some of that both emergency response as well the infrastructure—how do you rebuild differently, so that it can withstand future events? Peter: Yeah. So I guess, you know, a question I would have, and maybe our partners, the heritage area folks, is scenario planning—is that something that will become kind of a bigger objective for some—I mean obviously, it’s a concern with parks, but also with our partners and the heritage areas. You know, the heritage areas really get a lot of their work done through partnerships themselves. Often a heritage area management entity really considers themselves more of like, a catalyst within their region to get things done because clearly, they’re usually pretty small, small groups and nonprofits, and they can’t do all the work themselves, especially if they’re in a larger heritage area they’re working with a whole cast of characters or, cast of partners, sorry. But, is scenario planning, you know, something that we, as the Park Service, should recommend to our heritage areas? Amanda: So the Park Service has a suite of different tools and resources that we are sharing with the parks and partners, and the heritage areas I think are one of them. So, our recent document “Planning for a Changing Climate” was released, that pulls together that planning framework. And scenario planning is one tool within there; vulnerability assessments are another. And so, I think, you know, heritage areas can look and see, ‘Okay, for our planning needs, which of these directions—we may need both, we may need one of the other, with available information or with what partners can bring to the table, be the right path for us’. But it’s nice to have that. I think, that NPS Document “Planning for a Changing Climate”, can be useful for heritage area partners and can think about, okay, all these steps in the process, ‘Do I want to go with scenario planning, does that meet our needs? DO we try and get a vulnerability assessment done? How do we go forward?’ So, there’s different ways to go, but I think those are, you know, can be very useful. Peter: Yeah, and I want to kind of pull Patrick back into the conversation a little bit, because I think part of our role and, perhaps the heritage areas’ role within their regions, is communications. And, as you know, Patrick is our man on the streets in terms of communications for the program. Patrick, I was just wondering if you have thoughts on how best to communicate this out to the heritage areas in our current forums for communicating? Patrick: I do, and I think that sort of my questions are divided into maybe two categories. One…the first is, I’m wondering, what do you think Dr. Babson about how immediate the effects of climate change are, and how much people understand that or rather, maybe struggle to understand that? We, in talking about climate change, I think there is a fine balance of conveying and communicating the immediacy, the dire need to respond to the climate crisis, as well as one of hope. So, how does the National Park Service balance both those messages of responsibility and immediacy with hope? I know that there are so many examples in history of humans responding to current challenges and conservation work like that, and I think that heritage areas often bring to their locales a sense of hope. Amanda: So, I think that you’re right to ask, what are heritage areas experiencing, and how immediate it is, and it varies by location. And I think, based on your local conditions, it may vary, how much you want to spend communicating about, how much about the problem and how much about the solutions. And I think we can also—in the Park Service, we have this great role where we’re telling our history, and showing some of that information about the change to date is one way to share, right, so that people understand how much change has happened. If you’re in your location, you can document, say, if there was particular historical events, and how the climate has changed since then. As I was saying, the timing of spring bloom has changed in some places. So, if you’re a battlefield, and—how the battlefield looked at a historic time may be different on that date in history, both because of spring bloom, but also because of how the surrounding landscape has changed. So, I think there’s opportunities as we tell stories about the change to also, as you were saying, to tell the stories of hope—of when we’ve encountered great challenges before we have been able to adapt. In some cases it’s about changes in climate, but in other cases it’s about changes in things like our energy systems, right? I love the story of New Bedford Whaling National Historical Park where—how they had to adapt as whale oil—when electrification happened—was no longer this source of energy. And thinking about, okay, as some of our fossil fuels, we transition away, as our source of energy, how is that going to affect the communities, and what can we learn from the past to make sure that we can do better in the future? Patrick: Absolutely, and I think that’s a great area of opportunity for our heritage areas because already, their purpose in large part is to tell stories of national importance in a cohesive way. And this story right now of, you know, climate change—of both the ongoing crisis and resiliency—is part of the story in the present in each of these regions in a different way. Amanda: My colleague would say, “Climate change is the heritage of the future”. So, we really need to tell this climate story. Patrick: Absolutely, absolutely. One document that I don’t think we’ve discussed too much yet that I’m thinking about in regards to the heritage area program is the 2016 “Cultural Resources Climate Change Strategy” document that the Climate Change Response program put together. So, how can this be a resource for heritage work and professionals across different areas of work, in and outside of the National Heritage Areas? Amanda: So, I think this is a great resource because it captured the range of different—where we are, and this a rapidly developing field, so we’re learning as we go. And it has a number of resources in there, one thing that I like to use is, there’s a “Climate Impacts Table”, and it goes through different types of cimate changes,. So, how temperature or precipitation, and what that means on different resource types. So, the things that you could potentially be vulnerable to for archaeoligcal resources versus ethnographic resources, and start thinking, okay, what do I need to think about that I might not have. So, I like that as a resource. And, there are some big picture strategies to think through about how, you know, what are the ways we can approach adaptation for different types of cultural resources. And then there’s some case studies. So, it’s always good to learn from others and it’s not just limited to parks or to the U.S.—there are some international case studies in there as well. Patrick: Absolutely. And you know, the case studies kind of firmly plant these in the present, which I think is important for recognizing how immeditate these concerns are. I remember one that is in one of our National Heritage Areas in southern Arizona, in Santa Cruz Valley NHA and part of Tumacacori National Histoircal Park, where—this is a desert environment and a 200-yar-old adobe church was seeing damage due to abnormal rainfall. And so I think that, case studies like this really illustrate not just the examples that we really hear of often in the media, like sea level rise—in a range of regions, environments, and cultural areas. Where else do you think the general public might find surprises or even misconceptions in their knowledge of climate change? Amanda: So, one misconception about climate change that I often encounter is that it’s only about natural resources. And, as our conversation is showing, that there’s lots of cultural resources that are affected by climate change, and so I think that it’s good to make sure that people understand that cimate change is affecting people, it’s affecting our heritage, and it affects how we tell our sory and share our culture. In terms of natural resources, something I like to note for coastal landscapes is, these are dynami places. So, some have the ability, right, natural proceses can adapt to sea level rise. When we’re able to remove some of these impediments to shoreline migration--so, barrier islands and dunes can migrate andward, if we haven’t disrupted the sediment processes, or added extra nutrients, then salt marshes can keep up, maybe, building vettically with sea level rise, or migrating upland if there’s not a barrier to that. But, there is only so much ability for this natural adapative capacity, and we need to address the root causes of climate change so the change doesn’t exceed those thresholds that’s more than we can adapt to. Peter: That is a challenge, as we’ve seen. I mean I think, you know, the promising thing is we have an administration now that is really focusing on it and putting a lot of effort into it and clearly, that will need to increase. And, you know, our carbon emissions and everything else will need to decrease if we’re going to, you know, really be able to make enough adjustments as we move forward, I mean that’s obviously bigger than all of us. Amanda: Yeah. But, we all have a part, and parks have a part, and heritage areas have a part. Peter: Yeah, right. Amanda: So, parks have a program called “Climate-Friendly Parks”, where parks estimate what their greenhouse gas emissions are, and then come up with a plan to reduce them. Peter: Ah, wow. Amanda: But a really important part of that is they also come up with a communication plan. So, what we do by telling our visitors saying, this is how we’re reducing our emissions, gives visitors ideas that, ‘Oh, I can do this too, I’m part of this’. And I think for heritage areas, they’re taking actions, right, that are also reducing their emissions and they can do those actions and communicating out to those…all those partners and communities, I think has a big impact. Peter: Yeah, that’s a great message, Amanda, and a real positive note, you know, for our heritage areas and all the partners, you know—that we, or they, as heritage areas and partners can make a difference, and then communicate that out to, you know, their general public and constituents and it’ll increase from there, I think that’s a great, great notion. And that’s part of the hope piece of it, Patrick, that you were suggesting. Patrick: Absolutely, yeah I think that addresses the sort of, sense of hope amidst also a sense of impending loss and how we can prevent that loss from happening. And also, yeah, kind of both what the responsibilities and the huge opportunities for the National Heritage Areas and the National Parks are. I think that it’s a great responsibility, but also one where we’re already seeing so much resilience that we’re going to talk about in some specific stories on heritage areas, like the Essex National Heritage Area and Maritime Washington, later in the season. So I think that’s a wonderful note to end on. Peter: Great. Well, thanks very much Amanda and Patrick. So Amanda, I don’t know, want to say anything else? Amanda: Well thanks so much. I look forward to hearing the other stories and examples. And thanks for sharing this important, you know—how heritage areas are impacted by and also can adapt to climate change. Peter: Great. Thanks. Patrick: Wonderful. Thanks so much to both of you for being part of the conversation, and thanks to our listeners for tuning in. Peter: Bye now. [Music]

• Episode 4.2 - Climate Adaptation & Resource Preservation in Essex County

  
  

  In this episode, NHA Communications Coordinator Patrick Shea and Region 1 Program Manager Peter Samuel discuss protecting cultural resource in the coastal Essex County region of Massachusetts, with Essex Heritage Director Annie Harris and Salem Maritime/ Saugus Ironworks NHS Superintendent Paul DePrey.
  Audio Transcript

  [Music]

  Patrick: Welcome everybody to the National Heritage Areas Podcast. I’m Patrick Shea, and I’m here today with three guests: Peter Samuel, as well as Paul DePrey and Annie Harris. I’ll let everybody introduce themselves and tell me a little more about what you do. Peter, would you like to begin? Peter: Yeah, hi. Hello everyone, and welcome back to our podcast series. My name is Peter Samuel, as Patrick said. I’m the manager of the National Heritage Areas program in our region, where we have 23 National Heritage Areas. And I’m here today, as Patrick mentioned, with Paul and Annie, and they have a special relationship, from my observation, as they work very closely together, as a National Park unit and a Heritage Area. And that’s something that we really strive for in our region, is to connect up parks and our heritage areas, and have them both do programming and projects together when they can. Today’s episode is a continuation of our climate change series. And you’ll hear from both Paul and Annie how climate change is really having an impact, mainly because they’re both parks…and a heritage area…on the coast. And Annie, let’s start with you, Annie, and if you could just introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about Essex National Heritage Area. Annie: Sure, so I’m Annie Harris, Director of Essex Heritage, and we’re the 500 sq mile National Heritage Area just north of Boston, Massachusetts, and we go up to the New Hampshire border. And we have a lot of the Atlantic Coastline from just north of Boston to New Hampshire, including the largest Salt Marsh in New England. So, much of our interpretation of our heritage centers on the ocean, and the fishing, and the long tradition of shipbuilding and maritime trade. And that is partly why we work so closely with Salem Maritime, we share a lot of themes with them, we also share themes with Saugus Ironworks in terms of early industrial history. So we have been really very involved with the coast, and we’re really seeing the impact of the changing climate in our heritage area. And with that, I’ll turn it back to Peter. Peter: Yeah, thanks Annie, and now I’ll turn my attention to Paul. Paul, give us a little background on what your work is about. Paul: Sure, happy to do so Peter. And Annie really kind of gave a really great sort of overview of the region. It is right up against the Atlantic Coast north of Boston—some wonderful, beautiful areas in the region. As Superintendent of these two National Historic Sites, Salem Maritime and Saugus Ironworks, I oversee the operations of each unit—park staff, obviously, and our budget—but there’s a big part about being a Superintendent and particularly in these two locations, in that they’re set inside, entirely inside, Essex National Heritage Area—and that is, really focusing on the partnerships that we can generate to really deliver National Park Service programs, not just to the visitors that come to our site, but to the communities that surround our sites. Salem Maritime’s mission is to represent, interpret, and share with people who visit our site, and the communities, information about New England’s Maritime history, which is, frankly, a lot. And it’s important that we understand the impact that climate will be having, not just on, you know, the historic buildings, but also on the ecosystem, ecosystems that these historic structures and landscapes are set in. Peter: Thanks, Paul. You know, in our first episode we talked about some of the potential for protecting cultural resource sites. Often people tend to look more at what the, you know, impacts on natural resources are going to be, but certainly, the cultural resources are also very affected. And I know, in prior conversations, Paul, you’ve been talking a little bit about, you know, folks who now have to fill in their basements, things you may need to do about raising up the wharves in Salem. And Annie, you’ve talked about things that are happening in the Great Marsh. Maybe you could just elucidate a little bit more—Annie, I don’t know if you want to start, you know, what the potential impacts are and how you’re seeing things move forward. Annie: So, as you said and Paul said, it’s both the impacts, we’re seeing the impacts on both the landscape and also the built environment—seeing differences in weather, and rainfall, and the amount of water in rivers, but I think the largest impact we’re seeing is with the sea. And it really has two impacts. One is obviously storm—some of the storms are getting bigger and they’re driving more flooding. But we also have the tides, and we are seeing that the tides, we have fairy large tides here, you know, nine-foot tides, but we’re seeing that we’re starting to get more “king tides” which are 11 feet or more. And as those get more regular and they see rises, you have more, what’s called “sunny day” flooding—so, even, it can be a nice day and there can be no storm, but you can still start to see some places and some roads flooding. So, as I mentioned earlier, a large part of the heritage area, particularly along the coast, is what’s the Great Marsh. It’s a huge--over 20,000 acre--marshlands. And it’s…in a number of communities, and it’s managed by a number of nonprofits and state agencies, and actually even U.S. Fish & Wildlife. And it’s studied as an area of critical environmental concern. And there is some adaptation going on to climate change, and fortunately it has some flexibility in that it is a large marshland, and there are some barrier beaches and they do move, and the marshlands are able to adapt a bit. So right now, there is still concern and study of it, but it’s a little easier to look at than some of the hard surfaces in the built environment and the coastal communities, which are, you know, really right there on the edge and have very little options…although, there are efforts of, you know, to try to grow more plants, and grasslands, and stuff, in the water to act as buffers. So, you know, everyone is really in the early stages of looking at this impact, I mean, I think now we’ve been talking about this for the last ten years. But it’s only been in the last few years that the general populace is starting to recognize that things really are changing. And the sea really is coming up higher, and it’s closer. So with that, I will turn it back over to maybe Paul, to comment on some of the things that he’s looking at specifically in the parks. Peter: Yeah, Paul, tell us more, a little bit more about the wharves. And, I know you had mentioned the Keeping History Above Water Initiative. Paul: Let’s start with the wharves. Peter: Okay. Paul: So, just to clarify, there have been wharves along the waterfront in this part of the world for hundreds of years. And it’s really important to also understand that lots of times these wharves sort of deteriorate over time and then go away. But every so often, you have a wharf system that is preserved because of, for whatever reason—you know, sedimentation, or backfilling within a channel, or something along those lines. And that was actually the case at Saugus Ironworks. Before it was a National Historic Site, it was known as a pretty important archaeological resource within the community of Saugus. And in the 950s there were excavations that were conducted, to understand the extent to which the industrial zone—where the blast furnace was that created the pig iron, and where the forge was that transferred it, you know, from one state of iron to another. And at Saugus, when they were excavating the section near the water, they realized that the bulkhead of the pier, or the wharf system that had been in place since the 17th century, was a good three feet lower, below the water level. Which is a good indicator that over the course of 300 years, sea level rose about three feet. And you know, this was a review that was a peer-reviewed, academic journal-type article that was published in the 1950s. And that sort of is kind of an early harbinger of the types of messages that we’re getting and, even as recently when the IPCC’s report came out about the human cause, impact to many of the climate imbalances that we see today. The other sort of little anecdote that I like to share with people about, at Salem Maritime, is that 1938 is when the National Historic Site was established. It was the first National Historic Site in the nation established. And initially, the proposed named of the site was to be Derby Wharf National Historic Site. Because Derby Wharf--one of four wharves that are part of the waterfront system at Salem Maritime—Derby Wharf is by far the longest, and creates sort of a barrier, buffer, if you will—sort of like a barrier island, or a buffer—to a huge section of Salem that used to be part of Salem Harbor, but had been filled in. And so, these are the lowlands, if you will, to the community of Salem. Lots of private land, lots of, you know, investment that’s gone into this space that used to be the water, and is now land. And, you know, the Park Service sort of took a look at the condition and state of the wharf systems—you know, as I mentioned, Derby Wharf, and there’s another large-ish wharf called Central Wharf. And both of these were in really, really poor condition. And every generation since the 1940s, the National Park Service has invested time, talent, money in rehabilitating the wharves to ensure that they’re both present as parts of the cultural landscape, which is part of the reason that the site was established, to preserve this wharf system, as well as the historic buildings in vicinity of the wharves. Peter: So Paul, sorry to interrupt, but I just wonder, you know, in your description of things and certainly, you know, in the rise of the sea level and its impact on the wharves, historic wharf structures, is there, but is there also a nation that some things you will not be able to save? Are people looking at it that way, like, ‘okay this, we save, this, we’re not going to be able to’, because of, you know, these changes and impacts of climate change? Paul: Yeah, you know, you’re talking about triage essentially. Peter; Yeah, yeah, exactly. Paul: And that triage decision-making process is one that’s part of a conversation really. It’s probably the underlying motivation for figuring out, “how do we keep history above water?” One example of a triage decision that, you know,30 years ago would not have passed muster but today is a reasonable approach is, for example, if there’s a historic building that has a basement, the idea that maybe with sunny day flooding, as Annie mentioned, the water table rises and floods the basement on a regular basement, to a point that it would actually damage the above-ground elements of the structure. So, filling in basements is one of the ways to ameliorate—that’s all you’re doing, is, you know, you’re putting a band-aid on something. But it is to extend the integrity, the cultural integrity or cultural significance of the structure. So… Peter: Yeah Paul: Yeah Peter: Well, I just wondered, you know, Annie, from your perspective, are you dealing with some of that within the heritage area in terms of this triage that Paul is mentioning—you know, what can we save, what can we not save. Has it gotten to that point yet? Annie: I would say we’re really at the early part of that. We’re still in this educational phase. You know, the State and Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute has done some really great mapping, and that’s just starting to get out. And it shows present-day flooding, and the likelihood of…where the inundation will be, from tides and storms, in 2030, in 2050, and in 2070. And we’ve been facilitating some of those presentations and conversations with communities to look at these maps. And so, again, I think we’re in the early stages of people starting to recognize and kind of wrap their mind around, ‘Oh, my neighborhood…gee, you know, by 2050, actually I may run some risk of flooding’. And it’s shocking, and it’s very difficult, you know, because these are star communities, where people have lived, and the buildings have always been there, and we really value our heritage and history, and the idea that some of it may be lost, or need to be modified, is very difficult. We, I think, as I said, I think we’re in the early phases. This conference, or kind of workshop, that’s taking place in mid-September, is the first time that this has been convened in Salem. I think, we’re going to have a lot of--It’s going to be mostly virtual--I think we’ll have a big audience. When we did these mapping presentations, we had a huge crowd. I think people are just starting to focus on it, but people are obviously very, very interested in it. Some of the presentation at this conference will be what’s been done in historic communities of Charleston, South Carolina, what’s been done with Carbury Bank, and how one might approach historic properties. But this is really new stuff. There aren’t that many examples. Boston’s done some planning, but it’s mostly planning and design for a few buildings that actually started to implement this. Patrick: So, Annie, you mentioned education and how heritage organizations or people in cultural resources especially now are in a big education and information-gathering phase. Looking to the future, what are some opportunities for public education and interpretation at a park or a Heritage Area? I thought I’d mention that in September, in addition to the Keeping History Above Water conference, for instance, an exhibition will be on display at the National Park Service regional visitor center on New Liberty Street in Salem, titled “Changing Climate on Derby Wharf”. So thinking about, perhaps, from a visitor experience or public education and interpretation perspective, what are some opportunities for communicating challenges, as well as what cultural resource preservation can do? Annie: So we are, as I said, starting to help organizations get information, particularly these maps showing some of the future predictions, out. One of the, obviously, one of the few silver linings in the whole pandemic has been the use of Zoom and virtual meetings. It’s a really good medium for getting this information out to a broad audience. And so we’ve had some of those meetings, and working with Salem Sound Coastwatch. I’m sure there’ll be more meetings coming up. We also do a lot of work with teachers, and particularly teachers in place-based education. More of them are requesting help in how they talk about climate change and how they can work it into their curriculum. We just came off a very successful weeklong workshop with a group of teachers from this region. And we spent a whole day with them up in the Great Marsh, talking about the dunes and resiliency that we’ve been doing, starting with the natural resources, and some of the challenges as well. Peter: Great, thanks Annie. I think maybe we’re getting towards the end here, but I think something that Patrick and I have talked about is making sure people still have some sense of hope, you know, that we communicate something in terms of resiliency, some kind of positive message, because it can get, we can get sort of in a gloom and doom mode. And you know, Patrick and I have talked about that, as, how do you balance out, so that we’re…we talked about it in our first episode…so that it’s not too dark. That we can look forward and know that we can adjust in some ways. Annie: I mean, I would say that a lot of the answers aren’t very clear still, but I think the change that I’ve noticed is that people are willing to talk about it now. Patrick: Paul, do you find any sort of hope in past adaptive practices when it comes to cultural resource preservation along the coast, from a park perspective? Paul: Well, yeah, absolutely. In the past, moving something like a lighthouse away from an eroding bluff was, you know, like ‘Oh, we’ve got to keep it up next to the water, as close as we can’. Well, you know, if you, do that, you’re going to lose the resource. So, move the dang building, right? Well, that’s not anything new. Buildings have been moved around all over the landscape of New England. It’s cheaper to, you know, move your house and buy land somewhere else and move your house to it rather than build a new house. And that is the type of approach that has been part of, you know, what I would refer to as, this is a cultural resource preservation approach. And so I think there is a lot of hope for the creativity, and that communities can come together and develop, in order to preserve those resources that are so important to them. Peter: Well thank you. Paul, I think that’s a great place to end--that we can all look forward to creative preservation strategies, and that’s what we’ll be together working on. And I think, you know, you and Annie have proved in working together as partnership and collaborating on a lot of different things and certainly, the impacts of climate change, that’s going to be a huge lift for both of you. But working together, and working with the community as you pointed out Paul, is really critical to both maintaining the park but also maintaining all the great resources within the community and within the heritage area, I want to thank both Annie and Paul for joining u today. Patrick; Thanks Peter. Yeah, this is a great way to wrap. I also want to thank Annie, Paul, and also yourself Peter, for being here today for a great discussion that gives me hope for the future, as well as reminds of all the important work ahead.

  [Music]

• Episode 4.3 - Tribal Affairs and Indigenous Engagement in the Northeast

  
  

  Region 1 (North Atlantic-Appalachian) NHA Program Manager Peter Samuel joins two guests in discussing how the program can best work with Indigenous communities in our cultural resource preservation and heritage space. Dr. David Goldstein is an anthropologist with the National Park Service currently serving as the Tribal and Cultural Affairs Specialist in the Northeast Region. Eric Chiasson is the Regional Tribal Liaison in Region 1, and an enrolled member of the Eskasoni First Nation of Mi’kmaq.
  Audio Transcript

  Patrick Shea: Hi everyone and welcome to the National Heritage Areas Podcast. This is the third episode of our 2021 season and today we're talking about tribal affairs in the northeast. I'm Patrick Shea, the Communications Coordinator for the NHA program and today in conversation we have three guests from Region 1, which is the North Atlantic-Appalachian Region of the National Park Service. First is Peter Samuel, our program manager for the NHA program in Region 1. And then we have Eric Chiasson, our Native Affairs Liaison, and Dr. David Goldstein, our Cultural Anthropology lead. First, I'll hand things off to Peter to tell us a little bit more about today's topic, and then we'll get to hear from Eric and David about the work that they do within native affairs. Peter Samuel: Thanks Patrick, it’s so great to have this opportunity to have this conversation today. We've been working with the heritage areas over the past year to really get them more focused on tribal nation connections and engagement and we have two guests today who work for the Park Service both the very heavily involved in tribal engagement--and by the way, you know, my role as the manager of the heritage area program in the northeast region and there's 23 heritage areas and not only are we working with the existing heritage areas to make sure that they are connecting with tribal nations--there are heritage areas that are doing feasibility studies that are looking to become heritage areas and we're really encouraging them to also work with tribal nations. So with me today is Eric Chiasson--I'll let him introduce himself, really great to have you here Eric and thanks so much for joining us. Eric Chiasson: Thank you Peter and thank you Patrick for having me on this morning. I'm Eric Chiasson, I'm the new tribal liaison officer in Region One of the of the National Park Service. I've been in this role since mid-September at this point. It's a large region; there's a lot going on in in the tribal relations space, and it's been very interesting and exciting to start to find my way around the region and get a handle on tribal relations. I've been working closely with David Goldstein in this in this regard, in fact this position had sort of began as an internship last year, but why don't I turn it over to David. David Goldstein: Good morning everyone and good morning Peter, Patrick, and thanks Eric. I'm David Goldstein, I am the ethnographer and cultural anthropologist for interior region one. I've been in this position for about four and a half years and when I came in we—I was a unit of one and one of the first things that I saw was the need to establish and think about what the national and regional priorities need to be for native relations in the northeast. This is the place where I want to say everything started in many cases, particularly for the way Native American story has ruled out since the arrival of Europeans, that is in many ways true, and so I know that that's a real tender spot and it's really important place and so one of the things we wanted to make sure that we did early on is establish an office--regional director’s office—and can oversee and understand the breadth of where native space touches the Park Service’s work. The National Heritage Areas program is one of them. And you know Eric is in a position where he does that work for us my work is really on advising on some areas that are related directly to cultural resource policy and its application in the in the National Park Service but native relations of course is a lot broader than that so cultural competency it is understanding constitutional law in American Indian law and some other things so I'm happy to have Eric's partnership to work with some guidance from regional directors office is terrific and interest from program director like Peter and his staff with Patrick to want to continue to talk about these things. Peter Samuel: Yeah great, thanks David and I and I just want to praise you if you don't mind you know you really I think helped open my eyes to realizing that all the land that we're on now is really tribal lands and I think you know it's something probably the majority of people don't really think about so and the other thing I think that you really underscored was that that the tribes really didn't go away I mean there's the tribal nations are still alive and well and you know they may have been displaced but there's still there's still here and the other piece of that is that even if there's not federally recognized tribes there's other maybe state recognized tribes--and not even you know they don't have the official designation at this point and I think what I've been trying to do is with the heritage areas is just raise that up a little bit so that--and as you know and because you've worked with some of these heritage areas in their efforts, some of them are quite conscious of this and more sophisticated in their ability to connect. And others, you know, still have a little bit of a learning curve to get there but I guess it is part of it, you know. And something that Patrick asked me about is, you know, how have you seen this change take place? Or, what still needs to happen to really raise people's consciousness about it and what should the heritage areas do, but also the Park Service as a whole--how can they really embrace this more? Eric Chiasson: Peter, thanks for the question…why don't I start by saying we're just observing that we're in a pretty unique point in our nation's history, right? And probably certainly in the history of the agency and the department to have native leadership at both department of interior level, and now at the level of the Park Service. So I think that you know in the context of sort of social justice consciousness, I think that it has been raised across the country. There there's a lot of opportunity here to raise awareness and to do the work that I think that many have hoped to be doing. And I think that we can find a lot of ways I think that there's a lot of support within the agency and outside of the agency for doing for doing this work…so, I want to turn it over to David… David Goldstein: I mean, I think you can't underestimate the times of living in…I also think that—you know, before I started working here I was in Detroit, Michigan working for the Park Service as an Urban Fellow and my awareness was raised to--it's my hometown, it’s home to the MotorCities National Heritage Area--and my awareness was raised to what it means to create and plan a city on top of native land. That is the story of Detroit, and the fact that there are still standing monuments…native people and wisdom revered there are sacred spaces within the city of Detroit and still exist. When that became aware…when I became aware of that and also working in a very tangential program, I realized, like, ‘oh my…’-the opportunities exist, you know, as you mentioned, there are 24 indigenous nations that still hold title to their lands in this region. This region is home to 43 nations and the Park Service on our projects consult with about 52 and do we do that well, it's growing. It's been fair to middling, I would say…I think I always described the Park Service and agency space where we're kind of in the middle: EPA in this region does an incredible amount of work that is superlative. They have a very active tribal relations program that has been thriving for 30 years. The Park Service in some ways is late to the game. We have colleagues in the Fish and Wildlife Service—next to many of your heritage areas and incorporated in some of them by boundary and by nearest neighbor--that those, a lot of those agencies have very sophisticated tribal relations programs that we would have had, not really had for a long time. I think that the opening up to the future is about empowering citizens to learn some basic competency skills to understand and comprehend, even just as you expressed, like, they're still here--that's the big one for most native people. The other one is we're on your land and getting, even for myself, like, I think five years ago I would have said the Park Service is responsible for things within our boundaries for our lands. And I think now I would say my language has changed too, to, it has boundaries on native land where we have jurisdiction. That is what we have in the case of the heritage areas you are in partnership with. Partners occupy the cultural and cultural resource space to tell stories across landscape and the origin of that landscape was started by tens of thousands of years of human occupation many of those people are still there living in those communities and just you know that the opacity of indigeneity in the northeast. It is fascinating to me so many of our place names in the northeast still remain. As my colleague Eric pointed out to me the other day American history can be told in three life spans: Thomas Jefferson, Harriet Tubman, and Ronald Reagan. Those people are those people are barely separated at all between their death and birthdays and that's just an important perspective to think about American history across 3 lifespans particularly in this region is a tradition of 7 generations it takes 7 generations to restore land and to make things effective that's the thinking in those communities when they're stable and not facing poverty unemployment discrimination reservations under-funded mandates unrecognized treaties etc. so I think time and space are the things that that that we as employees and the agency are trying to get a heads around when it comes to interfacing and working productively with native communities and then lastly I think translating that ethic to our partners right we had a big conversation yesterday with RTCA project we have been working really closely with and the management plan that been translating that worldview and that way of rethinking the resource mission of the agency to bring it into a closer alignment with some traditional native values if they if they exist you know. That would be the goal and I think we're headed in that direction. Peter Samuel: Well I'm thinking, I mean, circling back to the heritage areas and specifically the feasibility studies I'm thinking about it because I just actually reviewed the Finger Lakes feasibility study that you know the Park Service has been working on for quite a while the Denver service center and you know in reading--and I know there was a lot of effort putting put into connecting with what twelve different tribal organizations as part of it and you know and we're also working with the Downeast Maine up in Washington and Hancock counties you know and maybe to both of you how best can we make sure that that you know we're connecting we're making connections but does that imply that as this these projects get implemented that they really you know come together and involve the tribal nations are indigenous people as partners. David Goldstein: I would say that the Finger Lakes initiative for their feasibility studies since I've been here in this region is one of the most ambitious attempts 2 have the federal government try to engage the members of the Six Nations, the Haudenosaunee probably for the federal government in in maybe 200 years the hood is Shawnee um we learned a lot from that feasibility study and most of what we learned is what we don't know I laud the work that in particular are planners like Martha Droege, who has a background in state department diplomacy working embassies she used every skill in her book to work on getting responses. I would say she you know even though it doesn't appear in the document we made in some cases like first contact for the first time for this agency with multiple nations, and you know Eric I think if you want to can you talk a little bit substantively about what that was like to work with Joe Stahlman? Eric Chiasson: Yeah, it was interesting in that in that my by initial impression was that it sort of or a very much brought home for me the reality that tribal relations across our region one are very uneven. We're in we're in various stages of development and cultivation of those relationships and I think that our conversation with Joe Stahlman really illustrated that the reality for a tribal historic preservation officer like Dr. Stahlman is that resources are limited and time that can be devoted to engaging the different government agencies who are or reaching out to the tribe that's also limited in a very real sense you know they are in in some ways and in some fronts under siege in a sense--just that there are a lot of demands on their on their time and there's this new frontier of renewable energy projects that are that are confronting a lot of tribal nations and in our spaces--and no different in that regard and they're very much, you know, navigating that space like everyone else, and figuring out how to do that effectively moving forward. And one of the things that is a priority for us is to find ways to help to expand their capacity for doing so, but that's a complicated, that’s a complicated matter. And you know, we're working knowing with within our region and also with within or with other agencies to sort of, to figure out what is…what is a complicated a problem. So yeah, it was definitely an eye opening experience and a very valuable one for me. David Goldstein: So Joe Stahlman is the tribal preservation office for Seneca nation and we had the opportunity to listen to him and he’s a pretty amazing character he's amazing person first of all I what I think he highlighted in this story to reiterate what Eric said--it's time you know…and if this feasibility study had not been under the COVID time, it would already be done. And so I would say in fact again, it may be not reflected in the document, but in terms of what we know about the Haudenosaunee in New York State and their interest in federal resources…It's a lot more than we didn't have before and that's great. So the time was really important I think the other one is people they don't have resources so trying to make it as easy as possible, it is a good one and then in terms of turning it to some practical things for heritage area people—look, it's all congressional you know, park service…I don't know maybe a quarter of the equation, ¾ of it comes out of Congress right? And so again, the Constitution of the United States provides that there are three sovereignty's recognized: there's the federal government, they're the tribes, and the states--in that order, okay. And that's important--the congressionals have these drives in their districts and when they set up an entity to propose to be the managing entity a heritage area they had better be asking the questions where is the tribal engagement whose land are you want who are we talking to that is really important and from that ground moment of what congressional authority can provide for the heritage areas that would set the stage for way better travel relations going forward--because it would have a sort of two power approach: it would be the executive operating from a perspective of what the Park Service and the secretary and carrier can provide for support for heritage areas but it would be that congressional mandate to actually say, ‘look, we're going to come into your space we want to tell these stories were going to do it with these resources now we need you at the table’ and I can't underestimate that that would change it up…it would really change it up. Peter Samuel: Well I don't disagree with you David I just, so I'm looking you know also to, as you say, Harry directors or their partners to how best to like start to make a difference? David Goldstein: So, I can get two pieces and I've spoken about this before with you all and one is the native act of 2016. The native act Native American tourism and visitor experience act this actually provides it provides guidance to programs--RTCA national heritage areas and the rest of the Park Service to engage in native tourism in our program spaces we are supposed to be doing that as directed by the director of the Park Service and so in fact and that act was set up just at the end of the last section of the Obama administration and it was processed and brought forward into the Trump administration and actually we've done a lot of work in this area. So one of the things that the Native Act provided was to stand up the American Indian and Alaska native tourism association…the park services directly partnered with them just like with the heritage area program it's passed through money it comes from Congress we are here to support them they have an eastern region board member they have active programs…with the Saint Regis Mohawk they have active programs actually now in Maine with Mi'kmaq and Passamaquoddy Nations--there is now a Penobscot ambassador who I think has gone into cultural resources training program. So there are, at that nexus I would say like it's been quiet for the last 3-4 years but coming forward particularly in this administration I think you're gonna see enter step forward and I think you're going to see AIANTA as a partner in every program to help bridge that gap that's a great resource it's a huge resource I think I think the other one that we hope that we will see particularly in this in this in this this administration is that there is a huge call for interagency collaboration and cooperation we have been doing that in tribal affairs in this region for since I started here pretty effectively but I think you know you have helped Peter bring that heritage community to my desk and now I think with Eric and his face and me and this one we have the opportunity to actually start to direct people into real collaborative space with tribal nations that are prepared for this. Peter Samuel: So you know we're going to talk about the Washington County heritage area proposal and you know we directed them pretty quickly to the customer quality, because you're on their land, right? And anyway, so that, I think, has been I think that there will be more resources coming forward and I think the other one to think about is coach training is when we're doing training for four area work just invite the tribal governments I I'm sure somebody will send people they would be thrilled to have an opportunity to just see something different yeah I mean…I do sense that were at the beginning of something that's going to grow I mean it can't help but grow. And you know with Eric in your new role I mean it can't help but get raised up, and you know the fact that Eric, you talked directly to the regional director and the regional director staff that makes a huge difference I mean we need to be able to you know shine a brighter light on some of these things. And I guess I wanted to turn it back to Patrick, because I know we…we may be talking maybe he wants to ask another question or get us in there another direction--I don't know, Patrick, I'm turning back to you to…to give us some thoughts. Patrick Shea: Thanks Peter and thanks everyone for all that you've shared so far--yeah I guess I'd, I'd like to add one kind of piece to the conversation which is talking about land acknowledgements amidst all these questions and what they can do and what they can't do. Eric Chiasson: Sure and why don't I start by just drawing attention to a guidance document that that tribal and cultural affairs had had put together just you know in in in in recent months I think that this was in response to you know growing interest going with growing interest across parks and partners who may be external I think what you'll find the document or are some guiding principles and suggestions for how you how you might go about putting together a land acknowledgement in consultation with the partner tribal nations for the parks and the different spaces that you're in but it's certainly it's not a one size fits all sort of sort of situation. And I think that what you may find is some tribal partners are more interested in than others in in doing them—I think that that the reality is there are there are just different points of view on land acknowledgements, and I think that there's a there's legitimacy to each of them. David Goldstein: Thanks Eric, I was just going to add that I think what we're hearing mostly from the nations that we work with is there has to be a relationship and if there is no relationship there is no land acknowledgement worth saying yeah this trend for landing knowledge of the United states is growing and it will continue to grow particularly in as in program space where we're talking about partnership where it's not federal land that we're discussing there are some different kinds of considerations the federal government is always been in a relationship with native people whether native people or the federal government is likely not right that's an important piece that that we work with but you know in a program space with partnerships it's not always that way and I know a lot of partners are getting a lot of pressure from their constituents and from their boards to produce land acknowledgements but producing them requires relationships and you need to be talking directly with tribal staff tribal citizens councils you'd have access to those kinds of people in order to really make a land acknowledgement that is worth having and I think that's the that's really the place to start--that's the place to pivot from and that's the place of strength for both the agencies that want to have them or the community organization or the museum or the heritage here that wants to have landing knowledge been stating to make sure that they have those relationships in place for growing and there's a commitment to growth with the tribal partners they're working with. Peter Samuel: I guess, you know, this is making me realize that that you know, what some advice that we can provide to heritage areas who at least have an interest I talk about the work that we do, and just even personally? David Goldstein: This is personal work—I do it myself…Putting yourself into tribal space for non-Native people is very difficult--it is difficult work we understand why yellow paint in the room is that for sellers on this land it's not ours would you approach you approach the work with that perspective then there is the fear of that coming at you right the amount Jewish white man and I am a worried about but that fear is always met with grace um you're working with people who have survived an incredible art history that was not of their own making. And so I would say it's the position that you have as a person when you come to the work it's work and that's the place to start. And honesty and you're going to put your foot in it--it happens in this work yesterday I got yelled at by two fabulous people I learned a ton while they were yelling at me it was worth it--it was worth it I mean it's not yelling it's instructional is what it is it's coming from a place of grace that they do not have to talk to us they do not have to be here with us and they do not have to acknowledge that we're here still they don't and I think when you come to the table with that respect it will always be met with grace and my world is so much richer because I see Indian country in the world that I live in in New England that I had never seen before. And I think that you'll find that that approach being open to seeing the landscape you think, you know, through different eyes is what you gain by doing this work right doing it well doing it consistently and thinking through what you're doing and asking questions that come from a position of honesty and respect. Eric Chiasson: I always try I try to encourage people to have it to have an open mind to have a critical mind and to try to embrace different perspectives and to place them in in the context of just this this growing consciousness about social justice and environmental justice issues that are that are very much defining our moment I think that people will find when they pay attention to events that are increasingly visible in this country and bordering countries you know I II I know there are a lot of people are becoming aware about the realities of Indigenous experiences you know unfortunately it comes through revelations about mass graves at Kamloops in in in British Columbia I know that that the department of interior has embarked on a boarding school initiative and a report will be released next year and that will be will be an opportunity to have a conversation that would which be in an easy conversation you know oftentimes the are these are hard truths, right?

• Episode 4.4: Indigenous Lifeways at the Santa Cruz Valley NHA

  
  

  In this episode, Region 1 NHA Coordinator Peter Samuel virtually visits colleagues in Arizona to discuss Tribal Engagement in their region of the NHA world. He is joined by Tyler Miller, Marketing and Outreach Coordinator at Santa Cruz Valley NHA, and Anita Badertscher, Chief of Education and Interpretation at Tumamacori National Historical Park.
  Audio Transcript

  Audio transcript

• Episode 4.5 - Farewell Reflections with Peter Samuel

  
  

  In this special farewell episode, we return to Northeast for some (bittersweet) pre-retirement reflection with Peter Samuel on his decades-long NHA and NPS career. As the NHA Program Manager for Region 1, Samuel has shepherded the once-fledgling program into the robust network of 22 Heritage Areas in the region today. In this episode, we sit down with him to learn more about his background as a landscape architect, planner, and artist--as well as key takeaways for the future of the NHA program.
  Audio Transcript

  Audio transcript