Listen to Oral Histories about Prince William Forest Park
Oral histories are our window to the past. They are personal, telling, compelling stories of individual experiences within a historical context. Learn more about a particular time period by listening to people's stories.
Park Families Generations of families lived, farmed, and died on lands that today make up Prince William Forest Park. Remnants of their lives are scattered beneath this forest preserve. They are our park families, and their stories should not be forgotten.
Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) The Civilian Conservation Corps built Prince William Forest Park from scratch. From 1936 to 1942, the CCC used locally harvested materials to turn farmland into an outdoor playground for D.C. area residents.
Summer Camps Prince William Forest Park was originally called Chopawamsic Recreational Demonstration Area (RDA). Chopawamsic was founded in 1936 as a place for inner-city kids to play in the country air. Learn more about the great depression-era summer camps that first used Prince William Forest Park in the 1930s.
Spies in the Park (Office of Strategic Services) From 1942-1945, the Office of Strategic Services occupied Prince William Forest Park. Beneath the cover of a vast forest, America's fledgling spy agency trained thousands of men how to win the hidden front of World War II - the clandestine war.
Cabin Camp Counselor - Part 1
Listen to Ann Seaton Witzig talk about the summer of 1972 when she was a camp counselor at Prince William Forest Park. “I remember I was to help the senior counselor of the group. And I stayed in her bunk…and each cabin had a counselor. And I really helped out a whole lot with curriculum.” Interviewee: Ann Seaton Witzig Interviewer: Colette Carmouche Date of Interview: 7/31/08
Colette Carmouche: “I’ll start out with an easy first question. Just say what your name is.”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “My name is Ann Witzig. It used to be Ann Seaton. Now it’s Ann Seaton Witzig.”
Colette Carmouche: “So… when – so you were a camp counselor?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “I was a counselor in training – so I was seventeen years old – no, I was eighteen; I had just graduated from high school. And uh, I was gonna go to college in the fall. So we were – I don’t think we were, were paid. Um, the counselors had to at least have at least a year or two in college under their belts. So we were considered counselors in training. I think there was two of us.”
Colette Carmouche: “Okay… so, at seventeen you were supposed to have two years of college-”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Um, no. So-”
Colette Carmouche: “To be an actual counselor.”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “To be an actual counselor.”
Colette Carmouche: “Okay”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “So I was called a-”
Colette Carmouche: “Okay, I see”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “I’m sorry I was called a junior counselor. We had a group of kids who were called counselors in training. Keep that straight. So a junior counselor hadn’t – you were um.- I had just graduated high school, didn’t have any college under your belt. Counselors were in college and um, and we did have students here who were counselors in training. I believe they were in high school, a little bit younger.”
Colette Carmouche: “Okay. Okay, cool. And you just did that one summer?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “One summer.”
Colette Carmouche: “Okay.”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Yeah…”
Colette Carmouche: “Do you remember what year that was or-”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “1972.”
Colette Carmouche: “Okay”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Hurricane Agnes came that year.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm. Through the park?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Um, it came through the whole east coast. It knocked out the, the Potomac River, uh, crested some enormous level, flooded Great Falls. I remember my mother came to pick me up and had she not picked me up at a certain time we, we evacuated the park, got the kids out and um, had she not picked me up at that time, um, the bridges closed. Potomac River bridge closed.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “And, uh, I couldn’t have gotten across back to Maryland. I would’ve been stuck in Virginia. It was a big deal.”
Colette Carmouche: “Yeah I bet”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “It was a really big storm.”
Colette Carmouche: “Huh. So what did you do with all the kids?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Oh I think they must’ve been bussed home, cause it would’ve been too dangerous to keep them here.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “That’s a good question. It all – I guess we bussed ‘em out or maybe it was a time that they weren’t here.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Cause I don’t remember a lot of panic. Um – we must’ve shipped ‘em.”
Colette Carmouche: “Okay”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Or they weren’t here.”
Colette Carmouche: “So, um, I guess there was a time you, like, all the counselors would come before the kids – came to train and all that?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Yes.”
Colette Carmouche: “And so how long was the session of a camp training?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Boy, you know that’s – I’ve been trying to remember it’s – were they week-long sessions or two weeks? I can’t remember. Two weeks would’ve been a long camp for little kids… I think I had four sessions.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “They might’ve been two weeks long. Um, but that’s not accurate memory. [laughs] I can’t remember."
Colette Carmouche: “Okay”
Man: "Could you – did you do something maybe special on weekends? Did you have church services or anything, that would suggest they stayed over the weekend?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Yeah, that’s a good point. We’d have to have had something going on for weekend activities; I can’t remember. Cause I know, I remember visiting people back at Maryland; they’d come visit me. Counselors had time off on the weekends. Uh… so maybe it was only a week long. Because, yeah, you would’ve had to have something that would’ve, an activity that would’ve been really striking and I don’t remember that. And it would’ve been a long time - to have students for two weeks… if this was there first time out at camp.”
Colette Carmouche: “Yeah, okay. And so, do you remember like I guess what your, you know, responsibilities were as a-”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “a Junior – a counselor?”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “I remember I was to help the senior, the person who was, um, the senior counselor of the group. We had the senior counselor and I stayed in her bunk and um, each cabin had a counselor. And um, I really helped out a whole lot with curriculum; I really liked it. And being a science person I, I got into things like the, uh insect study and I remember doing even little activities, things we had done like at Girl Scout camp – weavings and, um… I was always looking for things for them to do. They had a set of books up at the lodge. It was up to us to come up with the activities. There was no curriculum.”
Colette Carmouche: “Oh really?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “So, a part of my job I always felt was um, was to be an educator. I guess I was always kind of that way.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “We kept ‘em real busy with lots of nature crafts and hiking and um… I’m sure we did a leaf collection. Uh leaf identification tree identification.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Then they’d have swimming and they’d have boating and other activities… but… that was interesting. There really was no set of activities. I mean, that was one of the frustrating parts. They kind of bring all these great little kids in, here, and it was up to us to do something with them.”
Colette Carmouche: “So I guess, you know, you guys, there were certain goals or something for the park or for the camp and all the counselors were just supposed to make up activities, kind of-”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “I think so. It’s kind of, um, kind of laid back. [laughs]"
Colette Carmouche: [indecipherable]
Man: “But you did teach them to swim…”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “We definitely taught them to swim. And I think our friend Sue Marshall was the waterfront instructor. I think she had that… W… and it was that higher level, uh, certification you had to be in the waterfront. And uh, and that was tough for a lot of the kids because a lot of them didn’t know how to swim.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “And they, they – I- it was really getting them used to just being near water – even getting their feet in the water and then getting water in their face. It took most of the camp just a session to get ‘em used to being in the water. Um, so there’s a lot of real basic goals like that that we were fulfilling.”
End of recording
Cabin Camp Counselor - Part 2
Listen to Ann Seaton Witzig talk about the summer of 1972 when she was a camp counselor at Prince William Forest Park. “So we became very close to the counselors. And afterwards we stayed in touch for most of the summer. All five of us went backpacking, up in…did the Appalachian Trail up in Pennsylvania.” Interviewee: Ann Seaton Witzig Interviewer: Colette Carmouche Date of Interview: 7/31/08
Colette Carmouche: “So I wanted to, um, just to try and figure out how many kids were here. Like, do you know how many… were in each cabin?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “It might’ve been – I’m thinking eight, for some reason. Cause that would be – let’s see, if there are bunks – two, four, six – there could’ve been eight… cause they probably were double-decker bunks.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “So there could’ve been eight. So there could’ve been, uh, maybe five cabins… no that’s way too many. I…
Man: “Well there’s five here now.”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Yeah, that was a lot of kids.”
Man: “Well, I’ve never seen a double-decker bed.”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Okay, so maybe I’m wrong there.”
Man: “But they typically had either four, six or eight to a cabin and then there – we had some cabins that had counselors right there with them.”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “That was – I think we had counselors, so if a counselor took one of the beds… I’m remembering it around fifteen. I don’t know if it was twenty, but it was – so it wasn’t ten; it wasn’t a teeny group. I’ll bet it was close to fifteen to twenty. Something like that.”
Colette Carmouche: “Okay”
Man: “And if you had a counselor in training there was another counselor that-”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “That’s right, adds another body to that.”
Man: [Indecipherable]
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Yeah… so maybe as much as twenty-four at a time. Cause sometimes I remember it could get to a good size of little heads, you know, wandering around. [laughs] It was a whole lot of responsibility but, um, I always felt like there was enough adults, uh, you know, counselors.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “and… wasn’t too overwhelmed [laughs] most of the time.”
Man: “For an eighteen-year-old”
Ann Seaton Witzig: [said while laughing] “Yeah”
Colette Carmouche: “And so you would’ve stayed in the same cabin as the kids?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “I did not – if I was a counselor I would’ve. I stayed in that, that upper cabin, um, myself and the senior counselors stayed there… and then the other counselors stayed in the cabins.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “So you became very close to the counselors, um, and afterwards we stayed in touch for most of the summer. We went – all went – all five of us went backpacking up in, um, the Appalachian Trail up in Pennsylvania. Uh… and uh… everybody just dispersed to college after that. But it was a really good bonding experience for, for the, for the young counselors here as well, I think.”
Colette Carmouche: “Sure”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “A good experience”
Colette Carmouche: “Um, and so do you remember like, can you call up, I guess, just daily activities or kind of a typical day?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Well, a typical day would be to get the kids up real early, um, always… they’re very sleepy and uh, they had to get themselves up and ready and then we’d – probably walked in a line up to breakfast. Um, I’m thinking of some that had breakfast chores. There might – there were chores so probably before breakfast we probably had to send some up there to set the table and get that ready and there probably were some, um – I’m trying to think about before breakfast chores – The bathrooms came later; that would’ve been afterwards. But probably after breakfast was the, some people were assigned latrines. Some had to clean the cabins. And we gave awards for cabins, uh for, the cleanest cabins.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “And, um, I’m sure some were assigned to come down here. And there probably were daily awards and, uh, once that was done then we’d probably have an – I’m sure we had an activity time. There was a schedule so different camps different, you know, of our little areas like Unit C here, we had our swimming time every day. We probably had a craft time and a swimming time, um… and then we’d have lunch time and then maybe another… and then maybe they had boating – they’d have a boating time. And then maybe another craft time. Um. And then dinner, and then after dinner… there was probably always a campfire.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “And then each group probably had to present – I remember each group preparing skits or an activity that you had to present, or we all had something that we had to present together, and then share.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “So there was a lot of, um, they were always excited to go up there to, to the big ring, and uh, meet all the other campers. You know everybody was a big ruckus and then they’d calm down and, big campfire – some activity, you know? It was fun for them. They’d come home – come back and there was a snack time; they could buy – or it must’ve been after dinner – they could walk up and there were some snacks that they could buy. And that was [chuckles] I was introduced to Reese’s for the first time, I - It stands out. [laughs] I’d never had Reese’s candy before… and that was a big popular one. And of course, it’s Virginia and it’s hot so, you know, you kind of get covered in chocolate but, uh”
Colette Carmouche: “So they were – they were selling these snacks?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Yeah. The kids – oh, we got little cards.”
Colette Carmouche: “Okay”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “And they had a name for – what do you call it – kits. [laughs] And you’d turn – you got a certain number so the kids could maybe something really special and they might use two of ‘em on it.”
Colette Carmouche: “Okay”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “You know, maybe you wanted maybe two candies but then you’d have to-”
Colette Carmouche: “Gotcha”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “get a second one. So, so they didn’t have to use money.
Colette Carmouche: “It was like a little store?”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “Yeah, a little store and so they could get – maybe postcards… they probably always got candy.”
[Colette Carmouche laughs]
Ann Seaton Witzig: “So we stayed really busy, um, and we always walked everywhere we went. And I took ‘em on lots and lots of hikes, so by the end of the summer – gosh I can’t remember how many weeks it was – but we had hiked all around. By the end of the summer we knew, I knew all the trails and had really… um, gotten ourselves and the kids in really good shape. [laughs] And were just going all over here – and they got used to walking in the streams, uh and doing real, swimming in the streams and um…”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “It was kind of – and that was something had to – ‘This isn’t a pool, you know. It’s okay to, to kind of get in and-”
Colette Carmouche: “Yeah”
Ann Seaton Witzig: “get wet. It’s a different experience for them kids.”
End of recording
Camp Fire Girls Canoe Trip
Listen to an oral history from the Camp Fire Girls who were counselors at Camp Mawavi (Cabin Camp 2) in the 1950s.
“So the first year, we took a canoe trip! Our unforgettable canoe trip! Eleven CITs [Counselors in Training], two counselors, seven canoes…and we lit on the Potomac for three days and went down Creek, cooked our own meals over the campfire, slept on the shore in the rain and the sun and the mosquitoes.”
Interviewee: Susan P. Allport, Joan Evans, Amy Hale, Elizabeth Hine Kight, Alice O'Boyl
“And then, one week of each of those four weeks – at least when we were there – was devoted to some sort of trip. So in the first year, we… [women remark] took a canoe trip. [women laugh] Our unforgettable canoe trip.”
“Yup”
“We had eleven CITs, two counselors, uh, seven canoes so-”
“One of which was – one of which was a solo canoe, yeah.”
“And we lit out on the Potomac for three days and went down Occoquan Creek, and cooked our own meals over the campfire…”
[overlapping]
“Crossed the Potomac to [indecipherable] Bay.”
“It’s like down the shore or-”
“Slept on the shore in the rain in the thunder and the mosquitos and the-”
“And remember how-”
[overlapping voices]
“They would’ve loved…”
Interviewer: “And were you just by yourselves?”
[overlapping voices]
“Well,”
“But there was no contest-”
“No contest-”
“It was the time-”
“I don’t remember there being permission slips or anything…”
“No! I didn’t-”
“…that went along with it”
“Wasn’t there a small craft form to sign?”
“[multiple women] yes!”
“There were!”
“No one knew where we were. [laughs]”
“We didn’t know where we were!”
[women laugh]
“And we didn’t know where we were going exactly-”
“[multiple women] no”
“We just sort of… we just lit across the river on the first night and ended up on a, on a, sort of a sandy or muddy beach…”
“Yeah, like-”
“… that had a private house, residence, up near – so somebody, I forget who, went up to ask the people living there if they would mind – if we – if they - if we would mind – if they would mind if we camped on their beach that night.”
“Oh”
[A woman laughs]
“And, um, so, the answer was they didn’t have any problems with it; they had two rather big dogs…”
“Boy you remember a lot about that-”
[women laugh]
“And they charged you money through the camp [indecipherable].”
“Right. And there was some kind of snake they killed that sort of spattered part, body parts all around-”
[women exclaim]
“I don’t remember”
“I do remember that we-”
“All I remember is my mother had a fit when she found out that we went on that trip. She said ‘Why would you let them take you!?’ and I said ‘everybody else is going’ and she said ‘If somebody jumps off a bridge are you going to jump off one too?’ ”
“We had-”
[overlapping voices]
“I think of all [indecipherable] experience-”
“That was – that was the highest one”
[women laugh and make remarks]
“I, I really thought we were going to – she here’s the incident that I will always remember. [women laugh] She was – Stephanie was in a solo canoe…”
“Was the smallest of us all, probably”
“This was coming-”
“No”
“She wasn’t smaller than me. I had to be with one of the counselors because I was the smallest one and we were supposed to be the sweep. We were pulling back up off the Occoquan Creek.”
“We were… Occoquan creek-”
“And she was under the bridge and I look behind me and Stephanie was spinning around in a whirlpool.”
“Well, the problem was-”
“Well we hit terrible headwind.”
“This is when the small craft warnings came up, I mean, cause the headwinds and the tide were going against me…”
“Right”
“… and I was nearly by myself”
“And we were trimmed wrong for headwinds.”
“which was fine – I knew I wasn’t in trouble. I just couldn’t make it-”
“I didn’t know you weren’t in trouble”
“But she was scared because she thought I was in trouble.”
“See, we really do love each other.”
[all women laugh]
“As much as…”
“And you were screaming, weren’t you? But the head would swivel and your voice [indecipherable] for us.”
“[overlapping] Yeah, she was screaming.”
“Well, actually-”
“You were screaming.”
“I was not.”
“You were saying ‘Amy!’ ”
[women laugh]
“Stop crying I won’t do it!”
“[indecipherable] and Lauren offered to turn me but I rejected that offer…”
“How did you get you of there?”
“You – somebody came back and I think there was a third person so we had-”
“We went back and, uh, somebody got in the canoe with her…”
“But the thing is, this isn’t a, you know, like, take liability for kids – even then – but I – anyway-”
Interviewer: “And who sort of, initiated this?”
[overlapping]
“Our parents”
“Counselors”
“Our counselors”
“We just decided, it was part of camp?”
“[indecipherable] it was Ginny’s…”
“It was just part of camp”
“And what we - excuse me -got out of it… our director, Ginny, um, was a certified boating instructor and so, out of our three-day trip, we received our basic canoeing red cross, basic canoe.”
“We survived it we get [laughs] we get basic canoeing.”
“And you will see a ceremonial gown later. We made ourselves a patch for ceremonial gown and called it our basic-full, because -”
“Our basic-full [laughs]”
[women laugh]
“I didn’t even remember that.”
“Yeah, I remember that.”
[women laugh]
“So this was in between the sessions?”
“It was during the first - no… first year.”
“First year sessions.”
“It was an older – it was three days.”
“Three days, yeah.”
“Um, we had [indecipherable]”
[overlapping voices]
“Yeah, and Johnny rejected out first campfire menu.”
“Our first… we had the menu planned…”
[overlapping voices]
“We had to submit it to our dietitian in order to, uh, to get our lunch-”
“To get food”
“-she rejected the first one”
“On what grounds?”
“She never told us.”
“We never knew.”
“She never told us.”
[overlapping voices]
“We really weren’t coddled, in a sense. It was – it was up to us to make this - to feed the staff and make it happen. And, and… and we did. The second one was… matter of acceptable.”
“Acceptable”
“Nobody died… Nobody got food poisoning.”
“And we’ve never forgotten-”
End of recording
Camp Fire Girls Goodbye Song
Listen to the Camp Fire Girls sing a song that they used to sing when they were counselors at Camp Mawavi (Cabin Camp 2) in the 1950s.
Goodbye song: “We’re sorry you’re going away, we wish that you could stay…”
Interviewee: Susan P. Allport, Joan Evans, Amy Hale, Elizabeth Hine Kight, Alice O'Boyle Shea, Stephanie Zarpas,
Interviewer: Colette Carmouche
Date of Interview: 5/23/10
Listen to the Camp Fire Girls sing a song that they used to sing when they were counselors at Camp Mawavi (Cabin Camp 2) in the 1950s.
Interviewee: Susan P. Allport, Joan Evans, Amy Hale, Elizabeth Hine Kight, Alice O'Boyle Shea, Stephanie Zarpas,
Interviewer: Colette Carmouche
Date of Interview: 5/23/10
[sound of stomps and sticks hitting together continue beneath the entirety of the song]
End of recording
Camp Fire Girls Song
Listen to the Camp Fire Girls sing a song that they used to sing when they were counselors at Camp Mawavi (Cabin Camp 2) in the 1950s.
Interviewee: Susan P. Allport, Joan Evans, Amy Hale, Elizabeth Hine Kight, Alice O'Boyle Shea, Stephanie Zarpas,
Interviewer: Colette Carmouche
Date of Interview: 5/23/10
[sound of stomps and sticks hitting together continue beneath the entirety of the song]
End of recording
Camp Fire Girls Camp Mawavi Song
Listen to the Camp Fire Girls sing a song that they used to sing when they were counselors at Camp Mawavi (Cabin Camp 2) in the 1950s.
“So come all ye campers for we are never blue. Be a member of our happy, laughing crew. You too!”
Interviewee: Susan P. Allport, Joan Evans, Amy Hale, Elizabeth Hine Kight, Alice O'Boyle Shea, Stephanie Zarpas,
Interviewer: Colette Carmouche
Date of Interview: 5/23/10
Where our lake does ripples and sparkles and gleams
So come all ye campers for we are never blue
Be a member of our happy laughing crew – me too
At night round our campfire we laugh and we sing
Give a cheer for Mawavi, we’ll make the echoes ring
Give a cheer for our campers, our counselors good and true
Give a cheer for you and you and you and you – me too
Mawavi Mawavi you’re the camp for me
You’re the place that I love best no other place I’d be
Mawavi Mawavi where life is a merry whirl
I’ll sing to you a joyful song for I’m a Camp Fire Girl
End of recording
Office of Strategic Services (OSS) Stories
Listen to an oral history about the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) from a descendent of a park family.
“Did you ever hear of German prisoners being held there?” “My father suspected that someone was being held there.”
Interviewee: Charlie Reid
Interviewer(s): Arvilla Jackson and Sue Taylor
Date of Interview: 6/8/05
Charlie Reid: “As a kid we were playin’, we were all over that park, and this had to be in the fifties. And, we found these little cap guns and we – I don’t know if you remember the little cap guns like pistol capsule… there was like, well this, this thing was like – it wasn’t a cap gun but it was like a one shot [stammers] It was expended but I, since then I’ve looked into the, uh, book where they were talking different type of guns and this was like a one-shot, it looked like a – it was made out of aluminum, but it was a real pistol. And this CIA used this and we – and we bought a hundreds of these things [indecipherable] and it’s like worth big bucks now. And I’m like, ‘had I known’ and they were like… everywhere! You know, you couldn’t shoot ‘em anymore other than that one time, you know, and we were poor; we could buy pistol capsule but couldn’t buy the cap gun, you know? And we used to try to put ‘em in and it wouldn’t work. And it was a one-shot CIA gun.”
Woman 1: “Okay”
Charlie Reid: “And I guess now, God only knows where they at, you know, they’re made out of, like, tin; I’m sure they’re ate up.”
Woman 1: “Yeah”
Charlie Reid: “We found a lot of those just scattered in the woods.”
Woman 1: “Huh. Did you ever hear of German prisoners being held there?”
Charlie Reid: “My father suspected that they were – someone – someone was being held there because, he said, all of a sudden, he said – he used to go pick the fruit off the trees, like I said, for every year, you know. I don’t know if he got permission from somebody or whatever. But this one particular time a couple of years where he couldn’t they – they drew a machine gun on him, he said. They wouldn’t allow him back up there. You couldn’t go anywhere in that park. And he thought something was up that some – they – he had got wind that they were some prisoners or something up there. Whether they were German, Japanese, whatever he didn’t say.”
Woman 1: “Did people know it was OSS?”
Charlie Reid: “Oh yeah”
Woman 1: “They did?”
Charlie Reid: “Oh yeah.
Woman 1: “Okay. And what was the reason given to them for having to clear the land? For them having to move out in the 40s?”
Charlie Reid: “That they were going to, uh – it was during the war…”
Woman: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “and it was in a war effort, and that they needed the land for, um… I think the marine core base was already established but they wanted to expand it, if I’m not mistaken. And you – and you were considered dishonorable if you didn’t want to help the effort.”
End of recording
Civilian Conservation Corps
Listen to an oral history about working life constructing Prince William Forest Park from a Civilian Conservation Corps member. “Things were really rough. It was a Godsend to be able to get with the CC’s.”
Interviewee: Melvin Rau
Interviewer: Colette Carmouche
Date of Interview: 9/25/08
Colette Carmouche: “How long were you in the CCCs?”
Melvin Rau: “I was a year in, in uh, Pine Grove and a year here at uh, Joplin.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Melvin Rau: “I had a discharge along with a… Did you see that, honey? When… I don’t know what happened with that, if I left it lay at home or what, but I had a couple pictures… and my discharge, and stuff but…”
Colette Carmouche: “Do you remember how you heard about the CCC?”
Melvin Rau: "Huh?”
Colette Carmouche: “Do you remember how you heard about the CCC?”
Melvin Rau: “Well my stepfather, he went to the CC, uh, first. He went as a leader in, uh, the forestry office. Was about… ten fifteen mile from the, uh, can. And he had a group of men who built telephone lines down from the camp down there; he had put the phones in… but I didn’t work with, with him. I mean, then he talked to somebody and they said ‘you should bring me up’ and I went up with him and they took me in and…”
Colette Carmouche: “How old were you then?”
Melvin Rau: “I was about eighteen.”
Colette Carmouche: “And were you, were you working before that?”
Melvin Rau: “No. Wasn’t anything like work back then. And… well… [indecipherable]. Let’s see, my stepfather was laid off at the telephone company. And we moved up into the mountain [indecipherable] some relations. He worked there and I would help a lot of times there… things were really rough. And it was a godsend to be able to get with the CCs. And – but I – if I… just couldn’t remember.”
Colette Carmouche: “That’s okay. Do you remember, um, how your family survived during the depression times? How they got by?”
Melvin Rau: “Well, see they got by – my stepfather worked at the CCs and I – my twenty-five dollars – it wasn’t much but… we survived off of it.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Melvin Rau: “There was three of – three of us boys and, uh, but they were, they were younger then they went right in the army soon as they were old enough. In fact, my youngest brother was a one sixteen yet when he went in – he lied his age. Mother signed for him and he got in. But uh, I, I toured the CCs and then when I got out of there I went to New York. Went from thirty dollars a month to twenty-one dollars a month.”
[All laugh. There are more than two people in the room.]
Melvin Rau: “Like I say… good life.”
Colette Carmouche: “Do you, um – did you get training when you first arrived at the CC camp to do different jobs? Do you remember if you received training to do the different kinds of jobs?”
Melvin Rau: “No… no. You just… went and did it”
[Both laugh]
Melvin Rau: “But the… I might work with the dynamite crew; that was dangerous but there was a good man there. And, uh, he – he did the old way… puttin’ the dynamite in; he would dig holes and stuff it down… for the explosives. Never had no accidents so…”
Colette Carmouche: “That’s good.”
Melvin Rau: “Only a, one time I was, I was driving tractor, and I was cranking the tractor, and it backfired and threw me up above the, the rear one. I had a concussion… they took me to [indecipherable] hospital.”
Colette Carmouche: “Oh wow”
Melvin Rau: “And I was there for, mm, about a week. They had me scrubbin’ floors while I was there.”
[All laugh. There are more than two people in the room.]
Melvin Rau: “That’s – I can remember that… I was pretty sore after a day or two but I was alright so, uh… put me scrubbin’ floors. I never told you about that, did I? I forgot about that.”
Colette Carmouche: “Do you remember much about the other men that were in the CCC with you? About the other men that were working with you?”
Melvin Rau: “Not too much. I made a lot of friends. In fact, the one friend, down in [Dennisburg], and, he just died about three month ago or six month ago. And uh, there was a couple more up there that I knew but they, they’ve all been dead a good while now. And, [indecipherable – friend’s name] I remember him – he was good. And, I’d like to say… all my friends - have passed on.”
Colette Carmouche: “Were most of them from Pennsylvania?”
Melvin Rau: “Huh?”
Colette Carmouche: “Most of them were from Pennsylvania?”
Melvin Rau: “Oh they were, yeah, I, I don’t remember but… Philadelphia and Pittsburgh and all… there might’ve been some there from other states but I don’t – I don’t remember.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm”
Melvin Rau: “I know… huh… I know the people down here didn’t look good on us, northerners, when we come down here [laughs] and… in fact you had to be tan you had to watch yourself.”
Colette Carmouche: “Yeah”
Melvin Rau: “And that it’s only… north and south. But, I don’t remember any, really any trouble we had.”
Colette Carmouche: “Mm hmm. Um, did you have social activities after you were done working? Did you have, like, social activities after you were done working? Did you go out, um, like in the, town or, you know, do different things with the guys?”
Melvin Rau: “Not a whole lot. Not, not very much. Um, I got to know this girl and I went up to see her a couple times but outside of that I… I don’t remember. But I remember they – going to Manassas different times; they took us over – truckload of us over there to move in, whatever. We always set a deadline. [laughs]. And uh…”
Colette Carmouche: “Was there a lot of, um, interaction with the community around you? Did, um – like you were saying you met this girl there, um, did you interact much with people who lived around the camp?”
Melvin Rau: “Not too much. Not too much. They, they didn’t welcome us. [laughs]”
Colette Carmouche: “Because you were northerners or because you were CCC?”
Melvin Rau: “Yankees”
Colette Carmouche: “Okay”
Melvin Rau: “I think that’s – I really think that’s the big thing cause they – they would call you Yankees.”
Colette Carmouche: “Wow. Mm hmm.”
Melvin Rau: “But I – I really don’t remember any trouble, getting overt.”
End of recording
The Houses of Park Families
Listen to an oral history about the physical layout of the land from descendants of a park family.
“My father lived in Prince William Forest Park which they called Hickory Ridge then… on my grandfather’s property. They name it Turkey Run now.”
Interviewee(s): Charlie Reid and Annie Bates
Interviewer(s): Arvilla Jackson and Sue Taylor
Date of Interview: 6/15/05
Woman 1: “We’re trying to recreate, the sense of place of what the community was like, what it was like living in the community at the time you were growing up… and anything you might know from when your parents were growing up. Um, to the point that if someone were to come visit the park, and the park was to present a cultural picture of what this community was like [phone rings] we would have uh, you know, the stories the [phone continues to ring] be able to recreate the community for anyone coming in.”
Charlie Reid: [answering phone] “Hello?”
Woman 1: “because that part has been lost.”
Charlie Reid: [in background] “Hey, what’s up?”
Woman 1: “So, um”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah, what’s up?”
Woman 1: “I guess the first question is where did you live… and where did your family live?”
Annie Bates: “My children?”
Woman 1: “No, your, your parents.”
Annie Bates: “Oh, my parents.”
Woman 1: “Yeah.”
Annie Bates: “Um… my father lived in Prince William Forest Park, which they called Hickory Ridge then… This was in like the… eighteen or nineteen hundreds. That’s when my father was born, there at old [indecipherable]. And his other siblings.”
Woman 1: “Alright, and, where in Hickory Ridge was this?”
Annie Bates: “Uh, on my grandfather’s property. Uh, they named it Turkey Run now.”
Woman 1: “Oh, okay. Alright, so Turkey Run was the…”
Charlie Reid: “It’s on Orenda road…”
Woman 1: “and Orenda Road?”
Annie Bates: “Uh huh.”
Woman 1: “Between the two?”
Annie Bates: “Mm hmm”
Woman 1: “Alright, and on that property – I don’t know if we’ve asked you this or not – could you, um, [sound of paper ripping] actually draw a sketch of where the house was located and what other buildings you may have had, um, on that property? Here. Oh I’ve got a pencil.”
Charlie Reid: “Oh”
Woman 1: “If that works better for you… Cause one of the things, you know, when people say ‘they took the land and they took our house’ like we’re finding out that there’s actually much more than just a house.”
Charlie Reid: “Mm hmm”
Woman 1: “There were like, corn cribs, and-”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah”
Woman 1: “uh, gardens, and-”
Annie Bates: “Yeah”
Woman 1: “And, uh, barns, and you know all of this kind of thing that also went.”
Charlie Reid: “Mm hmm”
Woman 1: “And in the case of like the Thomases, uh – I don’t mean Thomas – the Taylors; their store was gone.”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah”
Woman 1: “You know, so we’re trying to get a physical layout so that, for example, if someone comes through to do a cultural history walk, we may be able to put up a plaque that shows where the house was and where the corn crib was and where-”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah”
Woman 1: “and where – create a visual picture for people who are coming to visit… You say he owned seventy-five acres?”
Annie Bates & Charlie Reid: “Mm hmm”
Woman 1: “Okay… do you remember what he grew?”
Charlie Reid: “Corn. Um, I think he did a little wheat, for the… for the… um horses and cattle, um. Green beans. Tomatoes, potatoes – things like that. Just, regular vegetables – greens.”
Woman 2: “Was there any cotton grown around here, or, at all?”
Charlie Reid: “Not to my knowledge.”
Annie Bates: “Mm mm”
Woman 2: “Tobacco?”
Charlie Reid: “Some people – I – my father mentioned a little bit about tobacco growing up around here and, whether he grew any, I doubt it. But some people would grow, like, grow their own, and cure it and… smoke it.”
Woman 2: “But that would just be for personal consumption?”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah… but as far as the house, uh, I know they had something like a wine cellar or something back up in there. Kept ice…”
Annie Bates: “Ice house.”
Charlie Reid: “Ice house, wine… they had a barn…”
Woman 1: “Your grandfather had that?”
Charlie Reid: “Uh huh”
Woman 2: “Did they make their own wine?”
Charlie Reid: “Oh yeah. [Indecipherable] and it came down through the years; my father, he made it. [coughs] Right here, this is where he made it. And, uh… I didn’t pick it up.”
[all laugh]
Charlie Reid: “But, uh, I think my brother – he knows how to do it. And I got a cousin – he makes it.”
Annie Bates: “You wanna put Turkey Run there?”
Woman 1: “Okay, yeah”
Annie Bates: “That’s the road.”
Woman 1: “Okay”
Annie Bates: “Because he was buried on his property before they even built this road.”
Woman 1: “Oh okay, okay… So this is, this is Turkey road, then?”
Annie Bates: “Turkey Run, ma’am.”
Woman 1: “Turk- [laughs] sorry.”
Woman 2: “So your father or your grandfather was buried-”
Annie Bates: “My grandfather.”
Woman 2: “Grandfather, okay, um… was that one of the, the cemetery plots that was moved?”
Annie Bates: “No, no – they never moved it. He was buried on his property, during that time.”
Woman 2: “Yeah, okay, so he’s still there?”
[overlapping voices]
Woman 1: “Still there?”
Annie Bates: “He’s – yeah”
Charlie Reid: “Oh yeah”
Annie Bates: “his grave and everything is still over there.”
Charlie Reid: “I would love to take you guys over there and show it to you sometime.”
Woman 2: “That’s the one you’d go to…”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah, I could show you the land – the house… everything.”
Annie Bates: “And his son that got killed in the coal mine… Morris-”
Charlie Reid: “It’s right in the little parking lot there."
Woman 1: “Okay”
Woman 2: “Yes, yes”
Charlie Reid: “Road to the left, yes.”
Annie Bates: “I guess I should’ve put Joseph Reid at the top.”
Charlie Reid: “If you’d walked straight down that road”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “and maybe one hundred yards on your right – that’s where the house sat… you could probably see it.”
Woman 2: “Oh, okay”
Annie Bates: “Because they didn’t notice – I remember my father – we used to walk over there. We lived in the house down here; that’s where Charlie and I was born at.”
Woman 2: “Really?”
Charlie Reid: “Mm hmm”
Woman 2: “Oh, cool”
Annie Bates: “After we left there… and we used to go up, in pears, apples, peach orchard – peaches at the peach orchard cause my grandfather had that and they were still, you know-”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “Huge pears, I mean pshh… big, big ol pears”
Woman 1: “Are the trees still there?”
Charlie Reid: “I don’t think so-”
Annie Bates: “I don’t know”
Charlie Reid: “I think the last time I saw those pears, maybe ten years, twelve years ago.”
Woman 1: “Did they just die out or do you think people chopped ‘em down or?”
Charlie Reid: “No I just think they just died out.”
Annie Bates: “No, they died out.”
Woman 1: “They died out… [indecipherable]”
Charlie Reid: “Oh, they grown…”
[Woman laughs]
Charlie Reid: “Yep, they died.”
Woman 1: “What was it like growing up?”
Annie Bates: “Fun. [all laugh] We stayed in there, everything fun. Because when my father moved here from, um, Hickory Ridge, we had uh pigs, we had chickens…”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah, we had those pets.”
Annie Bates: “Did he have a billy goat? Didn’t he have a billy goat?”
Charlie Reid: “Somebody had a goat.”
Annie Bates: “It’s very familiar, you know. Uh, that’s the only thing I remember… and when he used to kill the hogs.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Annie Bates: “You know, my dad. And he did have… a, root cellar. I remember him putting straw down in this basement with potatoes – he had a big garden. I do remember that.”
Woman 1: “How did the root cellar work?”
Annie Bates: “Good. It was cool.”
Woman 1: “It just-”
[overlapping voices]
Annie Bates: “It preserved potatoes.”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah”
Woman 1: “Would you layer it with straw, or?”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah, we kept potatoes for months at a time.”
Annie Bates: “He had straw where he would put his potatoes… and they would last all year.”
Woman 1: “Huh”
Annie Bates: “Year round because, the straw protected ‘em.”
Woman 1: “You put it under and over?”
Annie Bates: “Mm hmm”
Woman 2: “Maybe that’s what I need for my potatoes.”
[all laugh]
Woman 1: “I was just thinking-”
Annie Bates: “My mother-”
Charlie Reid: [overlapping] “I’m serious, you know those things that they did back then it, were ingenious, and we don’t do – you know, don’t even think about it now… [indecipherable] and that’s it.”
Annie Bates: “And I remember, we didn’t have electricity, and they had an ice box; before we got the ice box they had the ice house.”
Woman 1: “And that’s what – that was the one on the property that you showed?”
Annie Bates: “Here. Here too.”
Woman 1: “Oh, right here”
Annie Bates: “Mm hmm”
Woman 1: “And how did the ice house work?”
Annie Bates: “Well there was the old spring back down here.”
Woman 1: “Okay”
Annie Bates: “In some kind of way him and the other guy had fixed it and the water – it was fascinating – because grandpap, he had one too. the water used to run under that and I could never figure out how they would make the ice.”
Woman 2: “Huh”
Annie Bates: “But they would make ice.”
Charlie Reid: “Mm hmm”
Woman 1: “Was- did they make the ice in the winter, or, anytime?”
Annie Bates: “Year round, year round.”
Woman 1: “Year round?”
Annie Bates: “Year round.”
Woman 1: “Wow”
Charlie Reid: “And I knew back years ago at, at Hickory Ridge they sawed it, and Pa said he would go on, on to the little creek and then saw blocks out.”
Annie Bates: “Mm”
Charlie Reid: “And we’d put it in the – dig a hole – and put sawdust on it. And it would-”
Annie Bates: “To keep it-”
Charlie Reid: “Keep it ‘till the summertime.”
Woman 1: “Hmm”
Annie Bates: “That’s amazing, innit?”
Woman 1: “Gosh, yeah. I’d be fascinated to figure out how they made that ice.”
Charlie Reid: “I’d have no clue, but I heard more than one person talk about that… family. My father talked about it exclusively.”
Annie Bates: “I have my father’s old ice picks.”
Charlie Reid: “Oh yeah”
[women laugh]
End of recording
Ghosts in the Park
Listen to an oral history about ghosts in the park from descendents of a park family.
“One of the things that we heard about were a series of spirits that walk the road. One is the headless man…do you know who that’s supposed to be? Could it by any chance be the guy that Mr. Davis mentions in the tape who was beheaded at the mine?” “I heard about that! I heard about that!”
Interviewee(s): Charlie Reid and Annie Bates
Interviewer(s): Arvilla Jackson and Sue Taylor
Date of Interview: 6/20/05
Woman 1: “Yeah coming back to, maybe you know, Annie, one of the things that you heard about, um, were a series of spirits that walked the road. One is a headless man – do you know who that’s supposed to be?”
Annie Bates: “uh uh”
Woman 1: “Could it by any chance be the guy Mr. Davis mentions in the tape who was beheaded… at the mine?”
Annie Bates: “Did you listen to the tapes?”
Charlie Reid: “I heard about that. I heard about that.”
Woman 1: “Yeah”
Annie Bates: “Peet!”
Charlie Reid: “See I can’t remember – now… it’s coming back. I heard about that… Peet knew something about it.”
Annie Bates: [overlapping] “Peet and Otis was the ones that saw the woman come out the cemetery.”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah”
Annie Bates: “And they didn’t believe Peet. And Otis saw it one morning going to work… say she floated in the air. Said ‘help me, help me.’”
Charlie Reid: “Mm hmm”
Annie Bates: “And they saw that.”
Woman 1: “Okay… well there’s another one too that we heard about-”
Annie Bates: “But I heard ‘em say, but that used to walk – he used to walk, they said. Up and down something.”
Charlie Reid: “Mm hmm”
Annie Bates: “I – I’ve heard ‘em say that.”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah I remember that as a, as a kid.”
Annie Bates: [overlapping] “And then the guys that seen him is dead now. Now, like I said, my brother Warren probably could tell her more.”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah”
Annie Bates: “Cause Warren’s eighty years old.”
Charlie Reid: “I gave her the address, in DC.”
Woman 1: “Okay, the one in Alexandria?”
Charlie Reid: “DC.”
Woman 1: “DC, okay, yeah I’ve got to call him. Um, but the other one we heard about was that someone who gets in the car and rides with you-”
Annie Bates: “Yep, right there at the corner. Used to ride with Freddy Used to go down to Bates’.”
Charlie Reid: “I didn’t know about that one.”
Annie Bates: “Yeah… so he used to get on the car.”
Charlie Reid: “All I know is-”
Annie Bates: “So I don’t know.”
Charlie Reid: “those lights, beyond those – it – those houses aint had electricity in years and you could see a light shinin’ in ‘em. And I was told-”
Annie Bates: “Every night”
Woman 1: “Every night?”
Charlie Reid: “I wanted to show ‘em, Mr. uh, oh… Mr. Williams was his name?”
Charlie Reid & Annie Bates: “George Williams”
Charlie Reid: “house. And, a boy, they actually set fire to that house one Halloween; I know the boy that did it.”
Woman 1: “Wow”
Charlie Reid: “Because that used to be the scariest house on this road.”
Woman 1: “Hmm”
Charlie Reid: “But it’s gone now and I could – it’s - where that fence is, just around that curve here on the left-”
Annie Bates: [overlapping] “Where the new people built a house.”
Woman 1: “Oh, okay”
Charlie Reid: “You could see… lights and like somebody would be walking with an oil lamp in that house. And I saw that with my own two eyes.”
Woman 1: “Wow”
Charlie Reid: “That freaked me out.”
Annie Bates: “And it stayed cool right beside that house… it was cold in that spot.”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah, that was a scary, scary… It was more scary than this place, cause… that place, you could see that the lights… and you could always come back down the road [indecipherable] But, for us to get home, we had to crawl past that house. [laughs]”
Woman 1: “Oh okay, okay, yeah… Well do they have any idea who the person was – the woman who was floating?”
Annie Bates: “No, she comes out that Bates cemetery.”
Charlie Reid: “Um”
Woman 1: “Still?”
Annie Bates: “She’s a white woman. I’ve never seen her.”
Charlie Reid: “Have you talked to Sam Bauckman?”
Woman 1: “No”
Charlie Reid: “He is a good historical person for blacks, also around. He’s white but he’s – he used to be the ex-mayor of Dumfries and he, he was a caretaker, curator or caretaker, whatever, of Dumfries cemetery.”
End of recording
Churches
Listen to an oral history about the role that church played in the community from a descendent of a park family.
“It didn’t matter whether your parents went to school or church. You were going to Sunday School. You were going to go to Sunday School. And you were gonna get baptized.”
Interviewee: Charlie Reid
Interviewer(s): Arvilla Jackson and Sue Taylor
Date of Interview: 6/8/05
Woman 1: “What role did the church play in the community?”
Charlie Reid: “Um”
Woman 1: “And which churches… were most important in that area?”
Charlie Reid: “I would say Little Union…”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “Uh… Neabsco Baptist church. Um… You’re talking about during Batestown time?”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “Okay”
Woman 1: “up until 1945.”
Charlie Reid: “Mm hmm, okay. I don’t know if Star of Bethlehem was around then. I don’t know if it was. But I know, uh, what’s the church on Joplin Road? Star…”
Woman 1: “Mt. Zion”
Charlie Reid: “Mt. Zion. And…”
Woman 1: “First Mt. Zion.”
Charlie Reid: “First Mt. Zion. They were more like the churches of the time for the black community anyway.”
Woman 1: “Yeah, um… what were some of the activities that they did?”
Charlie Reid: [deep breath] “To this day I will always remember the Christmas plays. I – you know – you know it didn’t matter how bad you were, when you grew up, it didn’t matter, um, you know whether your parents went to school or at church. You were going to Sunday school. You were going to go to Sunday school. You were gonna get baptized.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “You know, um. In one – that was one of the biggest things for me, was going to Sunday school and having that Christmas play because the Christmas play always, you know, you were gonna get some candy, some oranges, a little present, you know. And a lot of kids, that’s all they got.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “You know, I can tell you without a doubt, uh, there was a many Christmas I didn’t get anything. It didn’t bother me that much like it does these kids. But uh, I remember when the, the military used to come up with, uh, these big trucks and we’d always wait the whole month of December, waiting for those trucks to come up. And they’d, they’d just – and it would be a big ‘ol paper bag and it’d say ‘boy’ or ‘girl’ and they’d throw ‘em at you, you know, and you’d grab it and you got good stuff – sometimes you did sometimes you didn’t, you know, and that was your Christmas.”
Woman 1: “Hmm”
Charlie Reid: “And that was just the way it was, but it didn’t bother me. But I always knew the church you’re gonna get that good, big bag of candy – gonna last you for a month… and some apples and oranges. And Miss Dina was always in charge of the, uh, Dina Bates was in charge of the, uh Sunday schools. And that’s probably one of the most spiritual men I’ve ever met in my life. You know, I thought the world of him.”
Woman 1: “He seems to have been just an extraordinary person… everyone, that we’ve talked to-”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah, absolutely. Abso - totally, I mean – lutely. I mean he, he’s, he’s the same way wherever you saw him at and, actually, he was very influential with me in church… very, very important.”
Woman 1: “What about things like the homecomings…”
Charlie Reid: “Oh yes, yes. My aunts would come back from DC, uh, from homecoming and, uh… The revivals, you know… you’d get to see… um… all of your, uh, relatives and also usually, you know the church – whenever they had funerals – you know, whether you were a member or not, they’d always let you have that funeral. And then you’d always get to see people that had been missing…”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “Or that you hadn’t seen, hadn’t had any contact with ‘em, you know? And I remember one time the churches used to allow you to keep the – cause I remember my grandmother wasn’t buried. I used to – we – it was me, my father, and a couple of my uncles… they’d leave the, the body in the church all night long. And I remember one time I was just sitting there in the back pew, the old one when you get into the church, and they had took – went outside to smoke or whatever and I looked around - I was by myself and I kept looking at that casket and I’m like ‘oh my lord’ I said ‘please don’t wake up now!’ It scared me.”
[woman laughs]
Charlie Reid: It scared me and I – and I was trying to play like I was brave but I was terrified and I was like ‘Daddy, come on back in here now.’ You know.”
Woman 1: “Mm”
Charlie Reid: “But, things like that, and, uh, I – I re – I loved the fact that the old church – I loved the old church. It was small. You were personal with people. You know churches these days, I think, they’re basically too big, I really do. I really do. You can – cause there can be issues with people in those big churches that you could probably pass them every day and never get to – know it. Or, uh, be able to handle it because it’s more like a business rather than a church.”
Woman 1: “More for entertainment…”
Charlie Reid: “Absolutely. And, uh, when I moved to Spotsylvania several years ago, you know, went leavin’ the church in Little Union, and cause it was just too far I looked, I specifically looked for a small church and we found one – a little place down in Cooktown, down there. I don’t know if you ever seen… and I said ‘that’s Little Union’ I said ‘that’s the old Little Union’ I said ‘we’ll go there’ and it was pretty good. But, I will always remember the old Little Union; there is nothing like it.”
Woman 1: “Mm”
Charlie Reid: “You know, I like the people in the new Little Union but there’s a huge difference.”
Woman 1: “What’s the difference?”
Charlie Reid: “Uh, like I just said, ya know, it’s just so big. It’s, it’s ran like a corporation there.”
Woman 1: “Okay”
Charlie Reid: “Whereas, uh, back then you know, um, the church was built probably and paid for the same day it was built… you know? They’d – somebody would donate the land, somebody would donate the, the uh materials, and just the, uh, congregation would build it. Nowadays, you know, these – it’s a multi-million dollar church. It’s gotta be ran like, you know, like I said, my brother’ll tell you – you know, it takes – every time you open that door, got those lights on… the meter’s a running; it takes money to run it, you know?”
Woman 2: “Mm hmm”
Woman 1: “Yeah”
Charlie Reid: “And uh, I think it’s just gotten away from it; everything’s so high tech and, you know, and they… years ago like I said, you went to church, your whole day was gone. You went to church all day.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “Man, they do a hour and a half and they go crazy. If it’s-”
Woman 1: “Oh no”
Charlie Reid: “If it’s an hour and forty-five minutes, you know?”
[overlapping]
Woman 1: “Yeah, that’s right.”
Woman 2: [joking, slamming fist on table] “I want one hour – no more.”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah, yeah. I mean-”
Woman 1: “We have someone in our congregation who will sit back there and they’ve got a timer on their watch-”
Charlie Reid: “Ooh yes, ooh yes.”
Woman 1: “And it goes ‘beep beep’”
Charlie Reid: “Oh absolutely. Absolutely. Or, they’ll let the, the preacher know that it – it’s football time, better hurry up, you know? [women laugh] I mean, but back then you and, and… like I said, everybody was principal. You knew – you couldn’t do anything and it not be known. I know who, you know, take the breaks in the church and go out… open that trunk and take a little joy juice, or whatever you want to call it, you know. I mean I knew; I saw it. You know, and it was like – it was just so funny, you know.”
Woman 1: “Did you ever hear of the red card [marly] men?”
Charlie Reid: “Red card marly men… that rings a bell.”
Woman 1: “These were the…”
Charlie Reid: “Rings a bell.”
Woman 1: “At least from what I understand, these were the guys at the revivals and the homecomings that would take the cards and go out into the woods… and do their gambling.”
Charlie Reid: “My father said something about that. He was not, at the time, [small laugh] the religious type. He went to church every now and then but he – he used to say some stuff about ‘em [laughs]. He mentioned something about that. I – I couldn’t – I recall it but I can’t-”
Woman 1: “Okay”
Charlie Reid: “can’t recall the conversation.”
Woman 2: “Now, did you say the original church is still standing somewhere, or Little Union?”
Charlie Reid: “No, it’s not there anymore.”
Woman 2: “No, okay”
Charlie Reid: “No, they tore it down.”
Woman 2: “That’s what I thought.”
Charlie Reid: “Against my wishes – I wish they had left it there.”
Both women: “Yeah”
Woman 1: “I bet they’re wishing that now too.”
Charlie Reid: “Oh yeah, absolutely. But, uh, and that was one of the things with the newer people wanting to get rid of and I’m like ‘what was the big deal?’ whereas the older one is kind of- the second oldest one is kind of merging the two – they’re using like a study. You can’t really tell it’s a part of the church but it is. But the first one that’s gone.”
End of recording
Story about Moonshine
Listen to an oral history from a descendent of a park family.
“We’re gonna stay all night and were gonna drink some of that moonshine!”
Interviewee: Charlie Reid
Interviewer(s): Arvilla Jackson and Sue Taylor
Date of Interview: 6/8/05
Man: “You ready? Okay. Uh, like I said this is a true story, it was me and about thirteen other guys… I was, what, thirteen, maybe fourteen. Like I said we were always playing in the woods, and during this time we were, like I said, teenagers and when we played cowboys and Indians at this time we used bb guns that way when you got shot, when you say ‘I shout you’ you knew you were shot, you know?”
[Woman laughs]
Man: “Anyway, this particular one day we – we had our bb guns we were walking in the woods, a group of boys, and we uh, we walked up on these big huge gallon jars – looked like mud… in the jars, and we just started throwing rocks at ‘em… And we got down to the last three of ‘em and we could smell, actually, it was um corn mash.”
[Woman laughs]
Man: “And we stopped throwing round and I said – everybody said ‘don’t throw anymore rocks, right.’ So we had built this wood cabin out in the woods, near there, and uh, so we decided – and this was a Friday night – and we said ‘okay, here’s what we’ll do – one guy was gonna go bring a bag of potatoes, one guy was gonna bring a loaf of bread, and we were gonna stay all night, and we were gonna drink some of that moonshine. Now nobody had ever drunk any of it, true story. And, uh… so… we got back and it was getting near dark and uh, I think somebody said ‘well, we need to get some candles’ so one boy went home and got some candles so we had candles everywhere. And it was why we didn’t burn the – how we didn’t burn the woods down is beyond me but anyway… we would bake the potatoes, and make toast outa the bread, and we would take a swig – we’d pass it around – and we thought it was going to taste like cider.”
Woman: “Mm hmm.”
Man: “Because it was mash, but it was strong. And we drunk that stuff and it burnt my mouth and thank God we were by the water so we just go down and drink the water… and we got tore up. I mean, every one of those boys we got tore up and we were singing all night long… and… telling scary stories. I mean, it, it – that was fun. That was, you know, what I – I’d probably kill my kids if they did something like that but, at the time, we were just wild kids, you know?”
[Woman laughs]
Man: “Uh, and uh, nobody told. Nobody told. No the parents didn’t have a clue. You know, but uh, we, we think it was only like one bottle. We never finished the other two we just broke ‘em. And um, I remember another incident… that was a relative of mine up the road, farther up Mine Road, that uh, had a steer back there, and my father knew about it but he never, you know, said anything about it now and I was hunting, one day, and I was – and I had just started hunting – and a gentleman’s blew up.”
[Both women laughs]
Man: “The steer was still alive too, and uh, he caught on fire… and he was actually setting the woods on fire as he was coming out. And they caught him and to this day he’s still burnt. And, uh, I’m not gonna call his name, but that happened. And, uh, even as a kid there were certain people that sold corn liquor on the road.”
Woman: “mm hmm”
Man: “But you never discussed it… never ever discussed it. And this one lady sold liquor – corn liquor, particularly – and, uh, I thought it was kind of neat. She, she was – she was slick. She was the slickest bootlegger I’ve ever known. She would keep her liquor, corn liquor… okay understand this – it was routine to go into anybody’s house that didn’t have running water, they’d have an old plastic bucket… use the bathroom. Couldn’t do number two in it but you could do number one. And they’d keep that bucket in there, and what she would do is keep that bucket, and she didn’t use it for the bathroom and things, she kept her liquor in it. And she would put a little drop of corn starch oil or something that made it turn yellow, okay? You follow me so far?”
Woman: “Uh huh”
Man: “And, whenever the police would ever come – she kept three gingersnaps cookies near there – and if the police ever come in she just crumble ‘em up and drop ‘em in to it and guess what it looked like?”
Woman 1: “Yes”
[Woman 2 laughs]
Man: “They never catched it. She’d strain it off, strain it off and sell that liquor.”
[Woman laughs]
Man: “Think about that. It’s a true story. True story.”
Woman: [coughs] “Sorry.”
Man: “That’s… how she sold her – she never hardly ever get caught… They may catch her with some beer or something like that, and she used to put… [indecipherable], is that what it is? The thing for the baby’s teething… put the babies to sleep. She put [indecipherable] in her liquor also. So if you got a fifty cent shot, you may drink that two or three shots and the next thing you know you would wake up with no money.”
[Woman laughs]
Man: “That’s the place I grew up in. And uh, I knew all about that and I was like – you know, that’s just the way they, they hustle. They hustle and they made a living back then. You know I would never, even as a grown man, even think about going to places – even though I grew up there – out of respect. But I wouldn’t, you know, go around, stuff like that. And, uh, [small laugh] towards the last – oh and I, and I know for a fact, whenever Cherry Hill would, would get dry for moonshine, they’d come to Batestown to get moonshine. That’s a fact. You can ask people in Cherry Hill to this day, and they’ll tell you that. That’s an absolute fact… And the last time I knew of anybody that actually made moonshine was a gentleman who, in July, used to have smoke coming out of his chimney.”
Woman: “Last July?”
Man: “No, not last July. During the month of July.”
Woman: “Okay.”
Man: “This happened maybe ten fifteen years ago – that’s the last person I know who did it. No, I take that back it was more than fifteen years ago, ‘bout twenty years ago… And uh, it was, he had a still in his chimney.”
[Woman laughs]
Man: “So… and we knew – everybody was like ‘why is Inez – it’s eighty degrees – why has he got… a fire going?’ You know? But they were very creative, uh, very creative people back then.”
End of recording
Something in the Woods
Listen to an oral history from a descendent of a park family.
“Something screamed out. That was the last day I have ever been in those woods.”
Interviewee: Charlie Reid
Interviewer(s): Arvilla Jackson and Sue Taylor
Date of Interview: 6/8/05
Woman 1: “What’s some of the scariest things you’ve heard about, happening in the Batestown area?”
Charlie Reid: “Oh my, lord. I told you. I could tell you. I don’t wanna tell you, though.”
Woman 1: “Oh, okay”
Charlie Reid: “It’s – it’s – I was terrified. Well, I’ll tell you. There was this thing – are we still on?”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “Me and my brother – I must’ve been… seventeen or eighteen.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “Cause he was still in school. I had just got out of school, and we used to night hunt, for deer. This was illegal at the time but this is a true story, and I’m telling you the truth, so… um. We went, uh, we would go out in the woods and, and be mindful this was just to eat; this was food.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm, yeah”
Charlie Reid: “There wasn’t, you know, selling it to somebody. Okay, so we did that. Anyway, this particular day, up until that point – I’ve hunted in those woods all my life. Been in those woods, never heard anything like that. This particular day, we went into the woods it was, uh, it was January – I wanna say near the first, second or third – and it was unseasonably warm that day. Cause you had a warm – when he got off the bus he had a short-sleeve shirt and, uh… it was warm. And it got colder that night. So we went across the street from my mom’s house and there was this little… brook… that’s where the deer were coming at night, and, drink the water. Well, so all we needed – I had a shotgun, single barrel shotgun – and he had the light, and we just walked – and we’d just wait… it was dusk; you could still see. And we just – we never kept the light on, we just sat right there and we’d talk a little bit and twenty minutes later it’d be pitch dark.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “Okay, so it was dark, and we thought we heard what was a deer coming towards us breaking grass. So, and I tapped him I said ‘there he is right in front of us cut the light on.’ And when he cut the light on, well, it was cold now, it was warm earlier and guess what happens when you’re by the water? Fog [laughs]. Couldn’t see a lick in front of us. And something screamed out – to this day, as – and then – that was the last day I’ve ever been in those woods – that particular day. Uh, it screamed and uh, I’ve hunted up there all my life. I’ve heard foxes make sounds, I’ve heard owls, I’ve heard bobcats… This thing had the most horrible, it was like a woman child scream to it… and we couldn’t see it and it was like breaking brushes coming towards us and I was like ‘oh my lord.’ So, we got back-to-back and we walked out of there and this thing – and like I said it’s fog all around us – it circled us as we were walking out and I’m like – I was too scared to shoot any direction cause it just circled and kept screaming. And uh, when we got back to our house, you know, my mom looked at me my dad - my dad looked at us and said ‘what in the world is wrong with you?’ he said, ‘you look like you seen a ghost’ and I was like ‘Daddy, there’s something out in those woods I’ve never heard of.’ And, so he told us we were crazy; he said there’s nothing out there, and, uh, we didn’t hear it anymore but we were scared to go back. We didn’t go back hunting for a long time, so… we got the nerve up maybe three weeks later and we went near where we could almost see the house, and we were back behind the house this time and we were spottin’ rabbits. This is still illegal but we did this. And you’d see a rabbits eyes at night with the flashlight and you’d shoot ‘em and you got a rabbit. Anyway, this thing screams out again. My brother takes, off, leaves me. He’s got the light and I’ve got like a single-barreled shotgun and I’m running – I’m like ‘wait a minute!’ – and I, I was mad at this time; I wanted to find out what this thing is. And I’m like ‘I don’t think this is a good idea; I don’t have no light, I can’t see this thing, it’s screaming’ and we get back and… I… get back to the house – my father, he comes out with his shotgun and he says ‘Where is this thing at?’ and I tell him I said ‘Daddy, it’s right back there by Mr. [Mulvey’s] house.’ And uh, there’s an old house – abandoned house – by our house, and you could hear this thing kicking up cans. We were shining flashlights; we couldn’t see a thing. You could hear – and all of a sudden it was like, this is during the time where you didn’t have to lock, uh, tie your dog up – must’ve been twenty dogs come right – and this thing walked right past, by our mailbox, and crossed the road, and like twenty dogs come up barking. I mean, ready to tear something up and lock brakes stops all of them, and it crossed over. Couldn’t see it. And this thing crossed over. And they didn’t go anywhere near it. So…”
Woman 1: “Hmm”
Charlie Reid: “Then, I called my brother, Walter, he came up there and we - and he had this big high-powered rifle and he was like ‘what is it?’ and I’m like, and I told him what it was and, and then it made the sound and – his first time hearing it – first time my father heard it, my mom heard it and they, they’ve lived there all their life – never heard anything like that, ever.”
Woman 1: “Wow”
Charlie Reid: “And uh, course everybody’s trying to tell me what it was and I was like ‘okay, whatever’ and we were imagining things. But it was, it was scary. And uh, so my brother sat up there and we were gonna sit in the front yard, see if this thing came back. He must’ve sat there for two or three hours so then his wife called him and says – cause he lived maybe a thousand yards from my mom’s house on the other side of the road… Something had taken their dog and broke its back and threw it underneath – and you can ask Walter [indecipherable] – underneath of his, uh crawl space. And we took the dog to the vet - it was paralyzed – and the vet said a cow or something had kicked this dog and paralyzed it. And he said ‘well how could it get under the house’ the dog couldn’t get under the house, it’s paralyzed. He said ‘well something threw him under there.’ [woman 1 exclaims] And I could go on and on, instances, but uh, even Mr. Jimmy, who was one of the oldest hunters up there… He used to tease us, and he says ‘y’all you crazy. [indecipherable] crazy’ and so – and then he heard it one night when he was coon hunting he says ‘there’s something out there.’ "
Woman 1: “Hmm”
Charlie Reid: “And uh, that particular time, uh, I don’t know why I took an interest into it but I was reading Potomac News and there was a, uh… on the marine corps base down here by Russell Road – that’s where they keep all of their, um, ordinance. You know… and you can’t go in there… not, you’re not allowed there. Anyway, an MP described, to the tee, to the newspaper that something was doing this screaming and like a woman and a child – and he shot at it and they, they got him out of the military and they thought he was going crazy. And that happened; that was in the newspaper.”
Woman 1: “Wow, when was that?”
Charlie Reid: “The Potomac News. In the 80s. 80s, had to be eight – no, seventy… three? Around ’73 – something like that?”
Woman 1: “Hmm”
Charlie Reid: “It was in the newspaper. There was like a little thing, like, you know ‘Marine discharged for firing [indecipherable]’ or what do you call it ‘claims he heard, um, animal voices’ or something like that. It was only like a little bit but I saw it.”
Woman 1: “[indecipherable] has anyone ever figured out what it is?”
Charlie Reid: “Not to this day. It has – of course nobody’s heard it anymore either. It, it, it was making noises like that for about fifteen-twenty years, and then it stopped.”
Woman 1: “Hmm”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah”
Woman 2: “And no one ever figured out – did you ever see any footsteps, or…?”
Charlie Reid: “Nothing.”
Woman 2: “Wow”
Charlie Reid: “That’s god’s truth. Freakiest… and from that day, I never went back in those woods, except for a couple times, uh, with a friend, and uh, when I used to go in – now, you’re talking to somebody that used to be joy free, going in the woods…”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “And now, I mean, I couldn’t go in those woods now the hair on the back of my neck would stand up. It, it freaked me out. It freaked me out.”
Woman 1: “Mm. Did anybody have any idea what that was?”
Charlie Reid: “No. I’ve heard people say, uh, it’s a coyote or it’s a bobcat or a panther or something like that.”
Woman 1: “What about a Bigfoot?”
Charlie Reid: “I – I contacted someone; there’s a Bigfoot website.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “And uh, supposed to be some sightings here in Virginia. I wanted to talk – the guy never called me back so I’m like ‘pshh, whatever.’ But-”
Woman 1: “Cause you know in the sound that they play, you know, if you watch any of the, um, TV specials-”
Charlie Reid: “Mm hmm”
Woman 1: “The sound that they play…”
Charlie Reid: “Uh huh”
Woman 1: “Has kind of that…”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah. [phone rings] But you know, I watched programs and laughed at people and I said ‘They’re crazy. They’re making this up. The UFOs…’ but I lived that one. And let me tell you something, there, there is no doubt in my mind that whatever that is is unexplained or is something that mutated with something.”
Woman 1: “Yeah”
Charlie Reid: “Yeah… and one time I thought it was an owl.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Charlie Reid: “But, uh, no I want to libraries; I heard all the owls… every known owl [laughs] there was nothing near it so I was like ‘ugh, okay.’ So, um… I’m a true believer that it’s something that mated with something, up in there. Uh that’s just my belief. And you got all those shafts up in there; God only knows what could be hidden in those shafts. I don’t know.”
Woman 2: “Now when it walked across the street, then ducks, you didn’t – you still didn’t see anything?”
Charlie Reid: “Didn’t see it. We – nobody’s ever seen it.”
Woman 2: “Nobody’s ever seen it.”
Charlie Reid: “Closest we’ve ever come to seeing it was the, the night it was foggy and that thing screamed around us and made like a big circle. And it was ter– and it is – and the guy was telling me ‘it’s gotta be an owl’ and I said ‘how many owls can tear tree branches up like a big - Bigfoot coming out of the – out of the thing?’ I said ‘how many can do that?’ I said ‘how many bobcats can-’ Bobcats will run from you. They will stand on top, they will go up in the trees but they will go. They will stand there, as long as you don’t see ‘em, and they will jump out of trees and they’ll scream on their way away from you but not at you. You know, I said ‘and a panther-’ I would know, I said ‘panther, I’ve heard panther sounds and it aint – and it’s not a panther.’ This thing actually, you know, freaked me out and, and my brother – In fact, I uh, when I was in Spotsylvania, you know as a police officer, the kids wanted you, you know, to bring your parents to the, to the, do a show-and-tell. You had to tell them what you do or tell a story. So I said, ‘I can tell you about the thing I heard in the woods or a police story, what do you want?’ And they wanted to hear the thing in the woods and, and when I finished telling, all the kids’ mouths were open and one little girl was terrified. And I’m like [stammers] you know, and that happened. So… But that’s a true story. God’s truth. And, I’m not the fearful type – and I was kind of mad because I wanted to know what this thing was.”
Woman 1: “Sure.”
Charlie Reid: “And uh, you know you can ask my brother, he’ll tell you – Walter will tell you, cause he – everybody used to think that we were just, you know, making it up or, or imagining things until they heard it and they were like ‘I’ve never heard anything like it.’ "
Woman 2: “Wasn’t it Walter that told us there were bears out there? That he didn’t… yeah…”
Woman 1: “Well, he mentioned bears but be also implied that there was something else out there-”
Woman 2: [overlapping] “Yeah”
Woman 1: “that...”
Charlie Reid: “He didn’t say what though, did he?”
Woman 1: “He didn’t say what… He said if we come back…”
Charlie Reid: “He’s – he’s a little apprehensive like I am about saying it because I don’t want people to think I’m crazy. You know, like…”
Woman 1: “Well, look…”
End of recording
A Funny Story
Listen to an oral history about a funny story from a descendent of a park family.
“What’s one of the funniest things you remember?”
Woman: “What’s one of the funniest things you remember here in [indecipherable]?”
Man: “The thing with the – the piece of… As a child growing up in Batestown, or…”
Woman: “Mm hmm”
Man: “What’s the funniest thing? Oh [laughs] Ah! I don’t know if I can tell this. It – well it’s funny now but it wasn’t funny at the time.”
Woman: “Mm hmm”
Man: “Uh, me and a friend [laughs] and everybody’s still alive that this happened to. Me and my – me and my best friend, a guy names Wilson Thomas, and he lives in California now and we haven’t seen each other in probably… till… think his brother died five years ago, I saw him. And, up until that point, I hadn’t seen him for ten years. But it was just like we just saw each other yesterday. Anyway, when we were growing up – and he had a younger brother, which I’m not gonna call his name – and he would follow us everywhere we would go. We would always walk in the woods to… pick berries, just play, shoot bow and arrows, make [indecipherable], whatever. And he just always wanted to follow us and we’d try to outrun him and he’d still be with us and we said ‘okay, we’ll fix you’ said okay, we – we said ‘you wanna join this gang? This is a gang… or a club.’ And he said ‘oh yeah’ and we said ‘all you gotta do is one thing’ so he walked on this little hill – was a ridge it was behind the house, and we used to have those swinging vines, you know what I’m talking about?”
Woman: “Mm hmm”
Man: “In the woods. Anyway, we told him said ‘okay, here’s what you gotta do. Put this vine around your neck and hold on and swing out.’ Okay? We put this vine on him and he swung out and he – and he stuck; he just stayed there.”
[Woman laughs]
Man: “He was like, ten feet off the ground and we were like, couldn’t, like ‘kick, kick back to us’ and we – he almost hung himself. And so we dove over onto this thing and put the weight where the tree went down but it rope burned him, but it was the funniest thing. It was funny and we got a beating; we got lit up. We got tore up.
Woman: [Laughs] “I’ll bet you did.”
Man: “And then the next funniest thing was… an episode with a bb gun, between me and my buddy – me and Wilson. Cause this guy, me and Wilson, we got in more trouble, God everywhere. Uh, he wanted to shoot my bb gun and I didn’t. At the time there was a house across the street from us that the lady let the – it was this church from ia that was trying to form – they didn’t have a home church so they uh, they used like a, uh, I wanna say shed or garage. It was only like ten or fifteen people but they came on this little school bus every weekend and while me and Wilson were arguing for the gun and, and it went ‘poom’ and it shot, and one bb went straight into the radiator of the bus and it leaked all the antifreeze out. And uh, and we were sitting there and I was like ‘oh my lord.’ So it was my gun, and they – when they found out about somebody had shot a bb gun into this thing, well, my dad took my bb gun and smashed it across the back railing and I didn’t have a bb gun for a while. And I had a sore butt.”
[Women laugh]
Man: “That happened. That was funny, too, cause we were like ‘oh man’ I was like ‘please, you gotta take this one cause my dad’s going to kill me.’ Yes… and he wouldn’t. And I said ‘oh, my lord.’ That was funny.”
End of recording
Annie Williams - Getting to School
Listen to an oral history about the people who used to live here before the park was created.
Interviewee: Annie Williams
Interviewer: DeAnne Evans
Date of Interview: 7/18/88
DeAnne Evans: “Now how ‘bout - you said that you and your brother – now there were ten children. Did just two of you walk to Dumfries to get to school “
Annie Williams: “At that time it was only, only two of us, that walked to…”
DeAnne Evans: “That what - did the other eight walk at other times?
Annie Williams: “After that when the others came along, my daddy, he went around and um, cause he was, uh, a paperman, and so he got them to put so much money a month and had uh, pays… enough to pay the kids to come in, rent a little house…”
DeAnne Evans: “oh”
Annie Williams: “um, and have school. Now there were in Minniville…”
DeAnne Evans: “Yeh…”
[indecipherable]
Annie Williams: “And at Minnieville, but where we had to move in, we had to walk down to Neabsco. You know, this, this little school is – I’ll tell you – were uphill of Minnieville and down the road about… ten… uh, eleven and a half… I’ll say about three quarters of a mile, was uh, [indecipherable]. Say, huh…”
DeAnne Evans: “Yeah, from Minnieville.”
Annie Williams: “Yeah, that was called Neabsco. Well, we had to put to school at Neabsco and we had to walk there. And we walked; it was a mile.”
DeAnne Evans: "Well, well that’s better than seven miles.”
Annie Williams: “Oh yes indeed. And uh when we would get there, oh the education that we should get, I only did finish elementary school. I finished elementary school and then my mother and father wasn't able to move me”
DeAnne Evans: “mm hmm”
Annie Williams: “They would have old places we would have to go and it was Fredricksburg or Manassas… [indecipherable] And they, they’re sending us Negro children… and yeah, and so they didn’t know high school education.”
DeAnne Evans: “Yeah, that was said, that was said of a lot of white children too at the same time.”
Annie Williams: “Yeah, yeah”
DeAnne Evans: “But couldn't afford…”
Annie Williams: “Uh huh”
DeAnne Evans: “As you say, they had to be sent away. Yeah, they didn’t have any high school, period.”
Annie Williams: “No… no.”
DeAnne Evans: “But Jenny Dean started the one in Manassas.”
Annie Williams: “That’s right, Yes.”
DeAnne Evans: “Did you – you walked here to Dumfries to school – you and your brothers.”
Annie Williams: “Yeh”
DeAnne Evans: “Were you the oldest then, you two?”
Annie Williams: “Yes, I was oldest and my brother [Steve] was the youngest.”
DeAnne Evans: “And he was the next?”
Annie Williams: “Yes.”
DeAnne Evans: “Well then, why did they happen to have, uh, a school up here? Was there large black community in Dumfries… a neighborhood?”
Annie Williams: “You mean…”
DeAnne Evans: “So they could have a school. Cause you said you came here to school. Have I got that straight? You came here to Dumfries when you were a little girl; you walked seven miles to Dumfries…”
Annie Williams: “Yeh, Yeh – You know I did, when we walked the seven miles I lived at the Minnieville.”
DeAnne Evans: “Minnieville”
Annie Williams: “Minnieville. And walked to the school.”
DeAnne Evans: “To this school. Where was the school here? Here.”
Annie Williams: “Lord, I can't hardly tell you...oh it was a long way back up from where the mine used to be.”
DeAnne Evans: “Oh, near the pyrite mine?”
Annie Williams: “huh?”
DeAnne Evans: “Was it near the pyrite mine?”
Annie Williams: “I guess that’s what they call it.”
End of recording
Annie Williams - Farming
Listen to an oral history about the people who used to live here before the park was created. “So you were born in Minnieville ninety five years ago?” “That’s right. Ninety five years ago in 1893.”
Interviewee: Annie Williams
Interviewer: DeAnne Evans
Date of Interview: 7/18/88
DeAnne Evans: “…at her home, at four hundred Mine road, in Dumfries. The subject is Prince William County as Mrs. Williams has known it since she was born and raised at Minnieville. And the date is Monday, July 18th, 1988, and the interviewer is DeAnne Evans.
[indistinct chatter]
DeAnne Evans: “You were born… you were born in Minnieville ninety-five years ago.”
Annie Williams: “Ninety-five years ago, that’s right. In – in 1893.”
DeAnne Evans: “1893.”
Annie Williams: “July the 6th. Eighteen… ninety-three. And um… it was a very nice community. And my father, he was, um, he was a farmer. And, um… and we just had, just … he raised a plenty food on his place. We, we never had to buy – wheat, corn, all of that. We had, um… My mother raised turkeys, and doves…”
[DeAnne Evans laughs]
Annie Williams: “parakeets and chickens and everything, all fowl.”
End of recording
Annie Williams - Pyrite Mine Memories
“And so the school where you went is back in near the mine. Is that right? In back in the woods.” “Yeah!” “And it’s not there anymore?” “Oh, no, no.” “It’s gone a long time?” “Oh, lord, years ago.” Interviewee: Annie Williams Interviewer: DeAnne Evans Date of Interview: 7/18/88
DeAnne Evans: “Went back into the woods to the mine.”
Annie Williams: “Yeah! It went right on up to the mine – and that’s why they named it – “
Both women: “The Mine Road.”
DeAnne Evans: “And then they brought the, the pyrite or the sulfur, whatever it was, down on the railroad, down to Possum Point – that’s the mine you’re talking about?”
Annie Williams: “They will – come right here way… come right, right in this road, where it is.”
DeAnne Evans: “Oh, really?”
Annie Williams: They call it the Dinky.”
[DeAnne Evans laughs]
Annie Williams: “It looked like a little train…”
DeAnne Evans: “Yeah…”
Annie Williams: “and I have watched it going along and it would blow…”
[both women laugh]
Annie Williams: “And uh, my sister-in-law’s father – he drove it… he runs it…”
DeAnne Evans: “oh”
Annie Williams: “Yeah, my sister-in-law… my brother’s wife… her father drove that all the time.”
DeAnne Evans: “That’s what I was wondering – he was the engineer. What was his name?”
Annie Williams: “Um, John Kendall.”
DeAnne Evans: “John -”
Annie Williams: “K-E-N-D-A-L-L.”
DeAnne Evans: “Kendall.”
Annie Williams: “mm hmm… Yes he run that little Dinky – they called it a Dinky. They run from um Dumfries to [indecipherable] side.”
DeAnne Evans: “Yeah, mm hmm. And then they loaded it on the ship, didn’t they?”
Annie Williams: “uh huh, uh huh… yeah”
DeAnne Evans: “And so the school, where you went was back in near the mine, is that right? And – back in the woods.”
Annie Williams: “Yeah! Yeah, all up in there, yeah.”
DeAnne Evans: “Oh – and it’s not there anymore?”
Annie Williams: “Oh, no no.”
DeAnne Evans: “It’s gone a long time?”
Annie Williams: “Oh, lord yes…yes.”
DeAnne Evans: “That’s interesting. Where was the – did the – where did the teacher come from?”
Annie Williams: “Oh, well the teachers came from different places, had, some maybe from um Fredericksburg. Mmhmm yes we had some come from Fredericksburg. And we had uh… we had a teacher from um… uh… Fairfax. Different places like that.”
DeAnne Evans: “And the teachers were Black, right?”
Annie Williams: “Yes.”
DeAnne Evans: “Sure, okay. That’s what - they, um, but they’d gone to the high school in Fredericksburg? Maybe, or -”
Annie Williams: “They had gone to that -”
DeAnne Evans: “High school in Fredericksburg.”
Annie Williams: “that, that, they’d come to be teachers.”
DeAnne Evans: “Yeah”
Annie Williams: “Oh yeah”
DeAnne Evans: “Uh huh”
Annie Williams: “Yes, yes… And you know you didn’t have to be good to go to college, then.”
DeAnne Evans: “I know. White teachers didn’t either, right?”
Annie Williams: “Uh huh.”
DeAnne Evans: “Uh huh – when’d that start?”
DeAnne Evans: “So then when you – you were raising your babies here, your little children, and working, and you met your second husband…”
Annie Williams: “That’s right.”
DeAnne Evans: “Here in Dumfries.”
Annie Williams: “Yes.”
DeAnne Evans: “Oh…”
Annie Williams: “Yes. He um, he, he – we went to school together. He was the same year, uh, same uh year as children born in the same year.”
DeAnne Evans: “Oh-”
Annie Williams: “And, um, he had to go overseas – he went in service. And while he was in service my husband died.”
DeAnne Evans: “Mm”
Annie Williams: “And that he was in doing the war too, you know, uh - 1918.”
DeAnne Evans: “Yes. Uh he went over to France, your-”
Annie Williams: “Yes. He was over in France, and he was indeed, he was over in France.”
DeAnne Evans: “Oh…”
Annie Williams: “So we got married after he came back. We got married in 1920… My husband died in 1918 – my first husband.”
DeAnne Evans: “Your first husband died in 1918.”
Annie Williams: “In eighteen and then I was married again in, in uh…”
DeAnne Evans: “1920.”
Annie Williams: “1920.”
DeAnne Evans: “Did you live here in Dumfries? Or did you go down-”
Annie Williams: “In Dumfries.”
DeAnne Evans: “Did you?”
Annie Williams: “Yeah… I’ve been in Dumfries ever since.”
DeAnne Evans: “Ever since… you’re a real native.”
[both women laugh]
Annie Williams: “Yeah, I’ve been in Dumfries ever since.”
DeAnne Evans: “Yeah.”
End of recording
The Underground Railroad - Part 1
Listen to Barbara Kirby discuss the possibility of an Underground Railroad stop located in the location where Prince William Forest Park is today. “Well, we have always felt really strongly that there was simply because of the Muschette family who lived there.” Interviewee: Barbara Kirby Interviewer(s): Arvilla Jackson and Sue Taylor Date of Interview: 6/10/05
Woman 1: “Now, there was an underground railroad stop, or something in the park, was there?”
Barbara Kirby: “Well, we have always really felt very strongly that there was, simply because of the Muschette family who lived there.”
Woman 1: “Uh huh”
Barbara Kirby: “That was – Dr. Muschette was a white doctor, and this was done prior to the time-”
Woman 1: “Okay”
Barbara Kirby: “of the civil war. Now, an interesting part to that is Um, I’m sure you all are familiar with Dr. Henry Gates.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Barbara Kirby: “Okay. Not too long ago a friend of mine told me, said ‘he has written a new book called, um the [indecipherable] woman’s narrative.’ So I said ‘okay, fine’ and she said ‘well it says something about Stafford in it’ and I said ‘no way.’ So, what happened is that, in the case of this one, Dr. Gates heard about this manuscript that allegedly had been done by a black woman prior to the civil war and she had written it. And everybody was going ‘no, that’s not gonna happen.’ Well, it mentions coming through Stafford.”
Woman 1: “Hmm”
Barbara Kirby: “And, and – but he had, he had nothing that he could actually document. As it turns out, when I read it, it named one family in there who owned slaves and, was well known. I happened to know the family.”
Woman 1: “Hmm”
Barbara Kirby: “So I called them immediately and said ‘does George N Crop ring a bell?’ and they said yes. So I figure, well hey, I’m just going to send a little note to the publisher and uh, so I uh emailed the publisher of the book… and not two hours later I had a call from Dr. Gates.”
Woman 1: “Wow”
Barbara Kirby: “And he said ‘do you have any other information on this? Can you get me the information on this – on the, uh, slaves?’ And I said ‘sure.’ So, you know, we’re finding little bits and pieces like that come up so that’s – when we found that, that just was further, just one more little nail… that said ‘wait a minute.’ You know, it starts looking like there’s a bit here and a piece there and a piece here… You don’t have the whole picture yet but you’ve got a pretty good idea what it looks like.”
Woman 2: “Okay”
Barbara Kirby: “So that’s the reason when you start looking at that and you start looking at Prince William Forest Park, because it was close to – you know it was not far from the water-”
Woman 1: “Right”
Barbara Kirby: “They could’ve gotten out… in the port of Dumfries… if they had to. Or they could keep going north and get – I mean they were fairly close to Washington by that time… And so we do know that others ,hum, ave come through this area. You know, those have come up, just, in books, where it’s just one – one notice. Um, ‘I came through at Potomac Creek’ and that was the only thing… so we do know that, you know, adding a piece here and a piece there and a piece some place else – that there were people who came through.”
Woman 1: “I did reach, um, one-”
Barbara Kirby: “Oh, you did? Good.”
Woman 1: “I’m interviewing her tomorrow.”
Barbara Kirby: “Okay, good.”
Woman 1: “Do you have any idea what I should be asking her? We’re looking for 1900 to 1945. Um, you know, I know the Liming family played a really important part-”
Barbara Kirby: “Yeah. And they, well, and they were – they went not only from, um… they went not only from the park but they also went down into the town of Quantico.”
Woman 1: “Okay”
Barbara Kirby: “So they, they were well known – there were, there was a merchant family also down there by the name of – you know a guy had a store and his name was Liming.
Woman 1: “Mm hmm, I remember the Liming-”
End of recording
The Underground Railroad - Part 2
“And what they were looking for is basically up the eastern seaboard. ‘Cause they knew if they get to Phillidelphia of Boston that was gonna…they could meld in with what went there.” Interviewee: Barbara Kirby Interviewer(s): Arvilla Jackson and Sue Taylor Date of Interview: 6/10/05
Woman 1: “Do you know of any underground railroad stops in Prince William?”
Barbara Kirby: “I think the – I think the park was one.”
Woman 1: “The park? Any particular families?”
Barbara Kirby: “Muschette.”
Woman 1: “Okay”
Barbara Kirby: “I really do.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm. I was wondering about that.”
Barbara Kirby: “That was one of the things that we figured. In the town of Dumfries that would never have worked.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Barbara Kirby: “Um, if you go up further and – to families that we knew – might’ve been helpful… it was so much further inland.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm. Okay”
Barbara Kirby: “And what they were looking for was basically up the eastern seaboard.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Barbara Kirby: “Cause they knew they got – if they could get to Philadelphia or Boston that – that was gonna – they could meld in with what was there.”
Woman 1: “Yeah”
Barbara Kirby: “And we had, we had Moncure Daniel Conway and then we had, um, Anthony burns who was a slave here in Stafford County who, uh, was the last slave to have been left Massachusetts. After that, they refused to let them, let them come in and get, slaves.”
Woman 1: “Mm… now what makes you think, um, the Muschette family [indecipherable]?”
Barbara Kirby: “Mainly because the Muschettes were - all I can read and hear about them – were a pretty liberal family for the area.
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Barbara Kirby: “Um, they were well-educated merchants. Um, [clears throat] they seem to uh, be involved with other families that were kind of a bit… same ilk, if you will.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Barbara Kirby: “And, you know in some cases, like I was trying to explain the other day, you – you’re not going to have absolute documented proof. And then it’s when you have to go is kind of on the preponderance of evidence.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Barbara Kirby: “But you do have to have a true preponderance of evidence; you can’t just say ‘well, I think’ you know, you have to have something to go on.”
Woman 1: “Mm hmm”
Barbara Kirby: “And so that was one of the reasons why, um, I had kind of got interested when I was up in Dumfries… about the possibility.”
