Audio
Gail Fahrenson
Transcript
Fehrensen: Dr. Gail Fehrensen.
Interviewer: Dr. Fehrensen was on Alcatraz . . . you were a surgeon then, were you sir? You were a surgeon on Alcatraz in 1918?
Fehrensen: 1918 and 1919.
Interviewer: 18 to 19.
Fehrensen: One day I was an intern at Alameda County Hospital, the next day I bought a uniform at [inaudible] Brothers, and the next day I was a First Lieutenant in the Medical Corps. at Alcatraz. Complete training.
Interviewer: Ok. This is your first trip back to Alcatraz, January of ’76.
Fehrensen: My first trip back.
Interviewer: Since you left. A number of years.
Fehrensen: The night of the Armistice I was sitting on this lawn looking at all the cannons and the fireworks and the whole business. It was a beautiful sight.
Interviewer: Yeah, we’re presently in the front of the island in front of the foghorn. The Armistice was celebrated at the Presidio.
Fehrensen: Yes, all over the city.
Interview: Do you remember the Panama Exhibition [Panama-Pacific International Exposition]?
Fehrensen: No.
Interviewer: In San Francisco.
Fehrensen: In ‘15
Interviewer: Yes.
Fehrensen: I wasn’t here. I was in medical school then.
Interviewer: How about anything else. What’s your immediate feeling when you first got here today?
Fehrensen: Very bad. Very, very sad to look at this. It was a beautiful thing. The island was beautiful. The prison was beautiful, and everything was good, but now it just looks like a disaster.
Interviewer: Kind of torn up.
Fehrensen: Exactly.
Interviewer: Not anywhere near representative of what it was…
Fehrensen: Oh no. It was a beautiful . . . beautifully kept.
Interviewer: And you were also the mess officer, you say? [crosstalk]
Fehrensen: Officers’ Mess, I was the Mess Officer and the Sanitary Officer.
Interviewer: Would that be for the military prison or would that be the staff?
Fehrensen: I was only for the Officer’s Mess.
Interviewer: I see.
Fehrensen: No, no. The prison had their own mess hall and the hospital had it’s own mess hall, all cooks and everything, and the officers had their . . . of course they had to pay for their men.
Interviewer: And did the Commanding Officer of Alcatraz . . .
Fehrensen: The Commanding Officer was Colonel Joseph Gurrard, a retired Calvary Colonel. And in charge of the post hospital was Major Yemans. He was a Philippine scout and an old line officer. He had Major Allen, the psychiatrist and several lieutenants, Lieutenant Jenkins and Lieutenant Neskel.
Interviewer: You remember all these well, don’t you?
Fehrensen: But I can’t remember where I put my glasses. [laughing]
The Colonel had two daughters who were married to colonels who were overseas, and he had a very lovely wife and they entertained a lot. Of course, we single officers escorted his daughters around. It was very very nice. Very gracious wife and he was a very southern, marvelous colonel, very much interested in the welfare of the prisoners. He reviewed all of every prisoner in here. He took a personal interest in them… Came back on General Mc Dowell.
Interviewer: General Mc Dowell?
Fehrensen: Uh huh.
Interviewer: That would be the boat that was turned over to the Bureau of Prisons when the military turned the island over.
Fehrensen: That’s the same boat. That boat would bring the laundry. You see we did all the laundry for all the forts in the Bay, all the shoe repairs, all the repair of furniture and all the dry cleaning was done here at Alcatraz.
Interviewer: Where on the island was the military laundry? Was that on the north end?
Fehrensen: Is that west?
Interviewer: West is this direction.
Fehrensen: No, out toward the Golden Gate. That big building over there.
Interviewer: Ok. The big one on the far end.
Fehrensen: Yes. And that was the charge of Lieutenant Hawkenson. And Hawkenson was a very . . . he was a marvelous officer. He was in it for teaching them. They came out here couldn’t make shoe repairs, furniture, everything.
Interviewer: What kind of medical facilities did Alcatraz have in the years you were here?
Fehrensen: The hospital is located on the back of the prison, facing the Golden Gate, about 20 beds, small operating room, laboratory, and was staffed by corpsmen, no nurses. But they were trained corpsmen and we did minor surgery, but we took the major surgery over to Letterman.
Interviewer: We’ll be in the hospital here in a little while.
Fehrensen: How many steps is it up to the hospital?
Interviewer: How many steps? I sure don’t know.
Fehrensen: 84. I think it was 84.
Interviewer: I don’t believe there’s that many. We’ll count.
Fehrensen: I’m gonna count. I’ll tell you this because I wrote that…. I did that thing for the museum.
Interviewer: What else strikes you right now that you’re back?
Fehrensen: The disaster strikes me. Horrible now. It was a beautiful place.
Interviewer: What is the most memorable happening or occurrence that happed while you were here?
Fehrensen: Well I’ll tell you, when I came down, I took my Hospital Corps. and had litter drill on the parade ground. And as I said over there, I’m sure I would have marched them into the Bay, except for my Sergeant [inaudible], he was very tactful, but I didn’t know anything. I almost did march them into the bay. That was…I remember that. I’d only been here a week.
Interviewer: How about escape attempts? Were there any . . .
Fehrensen: I could tell you a nice story about that. Now each officer was allowed a pass man. And that pass man was let out of the jail at 5 and locked up again at 9. And down underneath this quarter here was a pass room. Those people stayed… They were trustees in the pass room. You’d just ring a bell, they came up, made the beds, cleaned everything up, they were housekeepers. And at that time it was flu. They had the flu. And my pass man took my uniform and all my money and put on a flu mask. I was a lieutenant, and they had another lieutenant… Major Neskel, and they put on his uniform and they put on their flu mask and they went down to the dock and the officer of the day saluted them and said, “come back again gentlemen.” And they got off at Fort Mason and they recaptured them at Modesto hitchhiking.
Interviewer: Hmm, That was what year?
Fehrensen: 1918. That was when we had the flu. Everybody wore a flu mask. The record of that… The newspaper clipping is at the Museum. I gave it to him. You can get copies of it if you want it.
Interviewer: Yeah, we’ll probably . . .
Fehrensen: They’re pretty well torn up, but they’re there. And it gives the names… Our names and the pass men’s names.
Interviewer: As far as Alcatraz, were there any cannons still on the island in the years you . . .
Fehrensen: No.
Interviewer: None whatsoever?
Fehrensen: No. Cannons?
Interviewer: Cannons. At all.
Fehrensen: No.
Interviewer: Any field pieces?
Fehrensen: No. Nothing.
Interviewer: We have rumors, or have heard that there were at least one cannon up till the beginning of World War II here on the island . . .
Fehrensen: Not what I saw.
Interviewer: None whatsoever?
Fehrensen: If it was, I didn’t see it.
Interviewer: How about some of the cannon emplacements? Were they still intact when you were here? Some of them?
Fehrensen: I don’t remember.
Interviewer: Maybe on the west . . . galleries, batteries?
Fehrensen: What I was going to ask you. Solitary confinement here was hewn out of the solid rock. Those still here?
Interviewer: Where would they be located? Underneath the cell houses?
Fehrensen: Yeah. Cause I had to inspect those prisoners every day. They had great big old Mexican keys. Big old iron keys to open the doors.
Interviewer: They were under the cell house themselves?
Fehrensen: Yes. They must be there.
Interviewer: Ok, we’ll be down there.
Fehrensen: Cause they were right out of the rock and they were damp and kind of moldy.
Interviewer: Ok, we’re going to be over there in a minute . . .
Fehrensen: Cause I inspected those prisoners every day. Cause I got all the, you know… first lieutenant’s jobs [laughing].
[faint voice in background] Were there any deaths when you were here?
Interviewer: Did any men die while you were here? Any deaths whatsoever?
Fehrensen: No… We saw to that, they died at Letterman. [laughing]
Interviewer: You got them over there before they died then.
Fehrensen: Yes. They had the flu you know, and when they got sick enough to really need oxygen and everything like…took them there…
Interviewer: How about the size of the military prison?
Fehrensen: I can’t remember what it was. As I recall there were about 250 prisoners. We had one German prisoner who was a Second Lieutenant. His name was Shurig, S-H-U-R-I-G, only foreign prisoner we had. He was just under house arrest, but he was a German.
Interviewer: Was he the Consular General from San Francisco?
Fehrensen: I don’t know what he was… No, he was too young for that. But he was a young second lieutenant in the German army. I just remember his name. Shurig. He wasn’t in a cell. He was in house arrest.
Interviewer: Were there any prisoners of war on the island?
Fehrensen: No, we had prisoners, murderers, rapes and robberies from all over the world. But all our own military.
Interviewer: How about Angel Island? What role did Alcatraz play in relation to Angel Island?
Fehrensen: Angel Island. This was just a stopping place for General Mc Dowell to go over to Angel Island and people who were . . . the new recruits were brought on the General Mc Dowell – that was the only transportation there was. And then they went over there, and they were getting their shots and getting inducted into the Army.
Interviewer: I see.
Fehrensen: Over at Angel Island. The General Mc Dowell would stop here, let off laundry and stuff and then they would take these soldiers, these young kids over to Angel Island. I never was on Angel Island.
Interviewer: Never been on Angel Island?
Fehrensen: I could have gone over I just didn’t.
Interviewer: Maybe we should head on up top.
Fehrensen: Whatever you say.
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Fehrensen: I used to make short arm inspections.
Interviewer: Every time coming off leave did they [inaudible]?
Fehrensen: They either reported in or if they didn’t, if they had gonorrhea of course we court martialed them. And I was on the court martial A lot of prisoners were sent here, not court martialed. They just sent them here to be tried. The medical officers were free. We were on lots of those court marshals. I gave them the manual over there. I gave them all my stuff, the manuals, the court martials, everything. [crosstalk] He has all that stuff.
Interviewer: I see.
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Interviewer: How was water brought to the island when you were there?
Fehrensen: There was no water or fresh water on the island. The water boat, the El Aguador, brought the water and the tank was on the rear of the – facing the Golden Gate on top of the hospital.
Interviewer: How much water a week was used? Do you have any idea?
Fehrensen: I don’t have any idea. It’s a big tank.
Interviewer: Do you know how many trips would be made?
Fehrensen: I think they came once a week.
Interviewer: Once a week. How was it pumped up to the top of the cell house?
Fehrensen: They just had pumps.
Interviewer: Just the old pumps, huh?
Fehrensen: Yes.
Interviewer: Were there any fires ever while you were here?
Fehrensen: No.
Interviewer: How about the sanitary facilities? Did they use saltwater for flushing?
Fehrensen: Yes. Ruined the plumbing all the time.
Interviewer: Yeah, ruined the plumbing.
Fehrensen: Another interesting article that I put in this other one over there, we had three mules and carts to haul the things around the island you know, and that was just for island use. I was making a sanitary inspection and we had some caves as you know along the edge. I noticed that one cave was . . . had a lot of manure in it. So I had them dump it into the ocean, into the Bay. The next day I had a rather unpleasant session with the Colonel. He was going to plant mushrooms.
Interviewer: [laughing] And he had been putting it there, huh?
Fehrensen: Yeah, he had them put it there. [laughing]
[faint voice in background] In a cave with all this manure.
Fehrensen: It’s just one of those things.
Interviewer: The cave is still down there. Maybe we’ll be able to see it
Fehrensen: There’s a cave down there. At Fort Mason we had a three-wheeled motorcycle with one person to ride. That was the only transportation we had on shore that belonged to the island, which was very nice.
Interviewer: The Warden’s house you say was here . . .
Fehrensen: Colonel’s house.
Interviewer: . . . was the Commanding Officer’s house.
Fehrensen: Yes. Colonel Gurrard. He was a full Colonel.
Interviewer: Was the house pretty elegant?
Fehrensen: It was elegant. They entertained beautifully.
Interviewer: Do you remember how many rooms were in the house?
Fehrensen: No, I don’t remember how many rooms, but they had the old Southern etiquette. An Army etiquette. They were very strict Army people and gracious. And they had a little card tray where everybody who came . . . every other day you had to leave a card. Of course, we entertained his daughters and they were lovely people. It was a very nice family. I gave them over to the museum – some menus - Christmas and Thanksgiving. Pictures attached to them. The prison menu and the hospital menu and the officers’ menu. They have them over there.
Interviewer: How about the food out here? Was it pretty good?
Fehrensen: Excellent, excellent. The prisoners were fed well. We had unscheduled sanitary inspection of the kitchens about once a week. Well prepared. The officers had good food. Of course, they paid for their own. We used at that time China beef. Beef that was raised in China. Frozen and shipped over here. We ate what the officer’s called China beef. I kept the filets of course for the officers. We had good food, well prepared. I thought it was a very well-run place.
Interviewer: I bet the skyline of San Francisco here has changed quite a bit from when you were here.
Fehrensen: Yes, all these high-rise things. When I sat there at Armistice night, of course I was on duty. The Colonel and the Major, everyone else was gone. I sat there and had a beautiful view. Skyrockets, balloons, everything.
Interviewer: How was the activity at Fort Mason during the War?
Fehrensen: It was very busy.
Interviewer: Real busy.
Fehrensen: Fort Mason was a very very busy place. I was over at the Fort Mason Officers’ Club with Colonel, he’s a full colonel. . . he took us there for dinner one night. He got me into this mess.
Interviewer: The Officers’ Club at Fort Mason is really beautiful.
Fehrensen: That view is something. We had a beautiful night too.
Interviewer: Of course, Fort Point. What was Fort Point doing while you were, see Fort Point under the arch there . . . what purposes did it serve?
Fehrensen: I don’t know. Fort Point seemed to be a mixture of everything. What did they do at Fort Point?
Interview: At one time they thought about making it a prison too, but they changed their mind and it became a whole lot of things.
Fehrensen: Barry and Baker and Cronkhite.
Interviewer: That’s over across the bay from there, that’s now ours also. Were you over there?
Fehrensen: No I was wasn’t over there, but we used to do their laundry. We did the laundry for all the [crosstalk]. We did it for all the different forts. Laundry, shoe repair, furniture, cleaning, everything, by prisoners
Interviewer: For the coastal defense groups.
Interviewer: Would you like to go on in now?
Fehrensen: Sure. I can tell you other things. We had two kinds of prisoners. One was a numbered prisoner. Little black suits, who were going to get a dishonorable discharge. The others were the prisoners who wore a uniform with a red band, drilled half a day, worked half a day, and could be restored to duty and get an honorable discharge.
Interviewer: I see.
Fehrensen: I think that’s an important little item…They were very solicitous of the prisoners. They didn’t baby them, but they were very solicitous. Discipline was strict but fair. Because I saw them you see. But those two kinds of prisoners I think were important, but they were very…
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Interviewer: Well I don’t know whether it’s torn down or…
Fehrensen: It wouldn’t be worth it.
Interviewer: Yeah. They’re still estimating what it’s going to cost to do anything with this if they decide.
Fehrensen: Beautiful place for a prison, I mean really.
Interviewer: Well, it’s a natural, yes.
Fehrensen: A prison’s a prison.
Interviewer: Yeah. It did its job well I guess. Now the visiting area see would be in here. How about visits for the men that were here while you were here. Were they allowed visitors?
Fehrensen: Yeah, they allowed visitors. I think it was visitors through . . . not contact. They just went through a [crosstalk] holding room just like this. Yeah, there were visitors.
Interviewer: Through a mesh. Okay we’ll enter the cell house now. [crosstalk]
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Interviewer: Now this is it. Probably what’s different now is that you have the catwalk from here across to the cells with the spiral stairs at the end.
Fehrensen: Yep.
Interviewer: The bars look like this.
Fehrensen: Exactly. That’s the way it was.
Interviewer: These are the cells that were here then when you were here. The Bureau of Prisons added these. They changed the bars. hat’s all they did. All they did was change the bars.
Fehrensen: I wouldn’t have known that.
Unidentified: So this part …
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Interviewer: Now those cells, you mentioned that were “down under.” Maybe we can go look at those now.
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Fehrensen: I don’t remember. They don’t have those Spanish keys. Those great big old iron keys.
Interviewer: Ok now, under the cell house where these privies are. These then were walled in and used as . . . were the men chained into here?
Fehrensen: No, they had big iron gates. Big iron doors.
Interviewer: Iron doors and then the old-style locks.
Fehrensen: Old style locks with long iron keys, which was quite remarkable in 1918. That’s a long time ago.
Interviewer: Now how about…Do you remember anything about the rest of these rooms then under the cell house? Were these used for anything?
Fehrensen: No. No I didn’t know about that.
Interviewer: Ok now see now evidently these were at one time also used as detention cells. There’s an entrance to the other side of the building [inaudible]. . .
Fehrensen: [crosstalk]See I had no occasion to go into those, but this I did.
Interviewer: Well that’s interesting, they were used, and of course, these may be what it looked a little bit more like when you were here then. The bunks were swung on chains, is that right?
Fehrensen: Yeah.
Interviewer: Rather than with the legs underneath. Always one man in a cell? Never any more? [crosstalk]
Fehrensen: [crosstalk] One man a cell. Never any more.
Interviewer: Every cell had a toilet?
Fehrensen: Every cell had a toilet. There was no lid in there of course.
Interviewer: No lid, of course, right. But a sink also?
Fehrensen: Yep. Had a little sink and a toilet.
Interviewer: What personal items would the military prisoners be allowed in the cell with them at all times?
Fehrensen: They were allowed a comb and a toothbrush. But they check those toothbrushes and combs very carefully because they made knives out of them.
Interviewer: How about shaving? How was that handled, do you know?
Fehrensen: That was all handled…They were issued, when they shaved. They were issued in the shower room.
Interviewer: In the shower room?
Fehrensen: They had a shower room.
Interviewer: Down the other way.
Fehrensen: Down that way. They issued and then you check it in and check it out. Every blade everything [inaudible].
Interviewer: Everything was counted, huh?
Fehrensen: Every single one.
Interviewer: Yes. They would use straight razors?
Fehrensen: Yep, yep.
Interviewer: The strop and the whole thing. Good. [laughing]
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Interviewer: Two men weren’t allowed to shave at a time.
Fehrensen: No. One at a time.
Interviewer: One at a time. And is this every day? They would shower and shave?
Fehrensen: No, about every other day or so. I don’t know . . . maybe once a week. I don’t know. I’ve forgotten that. You wouldn’t really want to go to jail.
Interviewer: This room here is what . . . you wouldn’t impress the people most when they enter here. Certainly it’s a mess. When you were here this place was probably immaculately clean.
Fehrensen: Oh it was immaculate. It shined. Wax
Interviewer: Floors, yeah. Everything was freshly painted.
Fehrensen: All the time. They had prisoners painting all the time. They painted year-round.
Interviewer: Yep. Something like working on the bridges.
Fehrensen: Exactly.
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Interviewer: We get a lot of school groups out here and they seem very impressed.
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Interviewer: How about the church services?
Fehrensen: They had the, all the services. This colonel, this captain Ossewaarde was a Protestant, but I think the priests came from the City.
Interviewer: The Presidio?
Fehrensen: Because the only permanent preacher was the Chaplain was Ossewaarde and Laizure. Those were the only permanent ones here. They lived here.
Interviewer: Were the services well attended?
Fehrensen: Yes. Oh yes. And the school was well attended. You’d be surprised that they went to school . . . got their diplomas.
Interviewer: How about entertainment for the inmates? Were they allowed to say something like movies?
Fehrensen: They had movies.
Interviewer: Do you remember any of the movies that might have been shown?
Fehrensen: I don’t know, don’t remember. But they did. They had… I think they were mostly stills.
Interviewer: Oh.
Fehrensen: What do you call those movies? Lantern slides mostly. It was mostly lantern slides. They played… Where’s the bull pen here?
Interviewer: Oh it’s out back, we can walk through it.
Fehrensen: They had recreation there for the rest of the guards.
Interviewer: What kind of things would go on in the recreation area?
Fehrensen: They played baseball.
Interviewer: How about if somebody hit a home run over the fence?
Fehrensen: They’d sure like to chase it. [laughing] We had two prisoners got off of here on rafts while I was here. Two. I can’t tell you their names. But they never did find them. They went out the [Golden] Gate.
Interviewer: So they collected the driftwood and off they went.
Fehrensen: They went out the [Golden] Gate apparently cause they never were heard of again. The only two successful ones were those…
Interviewer: The guys who got your uniform. You don’t know of any instance then where a man as military prisoner successfully swam to the mainland.
Fehrensen: No, they never did. That’s what they said. No one ever… Not when I was here, and no one ever had, but these two guys, these two prisoners, they made this little raft, apparently went out the Gate because they never did show.
Interviewer: Do you remember any instances of suicides or...
Fehrensen: No. We didn’t have any.
Interviewer: None whatsoever?
Fehrensen: Nope.
Interviewer: Do you know how long the longest man served here? The average length of stay?
Fehrensen: No. It wasn’t a long stay because the idea was this was a Disciplinary Barracks. The idea was to get them back in the service. Of course, if they had a federal offense, like a robbing a post office in the Philippines, things like that. We had prisoners like that, then they didn’t want them in the Army. They’d want to get them out. Dishonorable. But the idea was to rehabilitate those prisoners. And the Colonel was very exacting on that. Very kind, but severe. No monkey business you know.
Interviewer: Anything else strike you, now that you’re inside the cell house. This here’s what we fixed up.
Fehrensen: Looks like the little sinks.
Interviewer: Ok this looks like what it would have looked like when this was a Federal prison. When it first opened. Maybe if we go back here a step you could help me out and tell me if this is fairly close to what it would have looked like as a military prison cell. We’re fixing it up and this is the way it looks the cell’s been painted with the white, with the green outlines of various areas, and then of course the bunk would be slung on the wall with these hooks here, and the sink isn’t in this one, but let’s see, here we go. Here’s a sink right here, in this cell here. The only thing then missing you think is, besides being dirty is the bed slung on the wall?
Fehrensen: Yeah. This is the way it looked.
Interviewer: How about with only one shelf at the rear of the cell or any shelves? See the one shelf?
Fehrensen: I think they had just one shelf.
Interviewer: Just the one. Just like you see there.
Fehrensen: You had to have this thing, so nobody could conceal anything.
Interviewer: I see.
Fehrensen: It was a jail.
Interviewer: Then this cell possibly here is exactly an untouched the way it was when you were here except the beds are gone.
Fehrensen: Exactly. It sure looks that way.
Interviewer: Outlined in green. Were they all the same?
Fehrensen: Yeah.
Interviewer: White with the green outline of the utilities.
Fehrensen: It had to be so you could see everything. Sergeants would come out here and they could just see everything. And they’d go by all the time you know.
Interviewer: Were there instances of lots of weapons and contraband.
Fehrensen: Oh yes, they had to check every... The dining room knives and things, and of course those prisoners worked and did the dishes. There were no dishwashers and things like that. They did the dishes and a lot of then in there. Everything was very carefully checked…[inaudible]…I think those were there, weren’t they?
Interviewer: These bars were added later. They removed an iron bar. They added these bars and you originally just had the windows as bars. So they just added a layer of bars.
Fehrensen: But you see, if you got mad at somebody and threw them over you this rail, you could get killed.
Interviewer: Did that happen?
Fehrensen: It had happened, but not from the top but. A lot of cells there. That’s the way they looked.
Interviewer: That’s it. They of course didn’t have the table and bench there on the wall. Those were added later. A number of changes have taken place here.
Fehrensen: But this used to be waxed and slick just like…
Interviewer: Is that maybe the first thing that struck you when you first walked in here the fact that’s it’s a mess?
Fehrensen: Yeah. It’s just a disaster.
Interviewer: That’s what most people think. [inaudible] write this out.
Fehrensen: Almost makes me emotional.
Interviewer: People even guys that served time here. That’s one of the things they comment on when they entered here. What a mess it is.
Fehrensen: Because this was a beautiful jail. It was.
Interviewer: As far as jails go. How about this stairwell? Do you remember this, where this might have gone? Maybe possibly down to the shower room?
Fehrensen: It could have been, but I don’t recall.
Interviewer: When it was a Federal prison, the shower room is below us. Would you like me to operate these doors for you?
Fehrensen: Yes.
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Interviewer: Do you remember any of the aisle ways in the prisons having certain names?
Fehrensen: No. I didn’t know.
Interviewer: In other words this . . . in Federal prison very often the inmates would refer to this area as “Broadway” being the main . . . And of course your mess hall would be through the door here?
Fehrensen: That’s right.
Interviewer: How about rations. Did they get full rations?
Fehrensen: Yes.
Interviewer: They didn’t get cut on anything at all?
Fehrensen: No, no. They were well fed. In fact there weren’t much complaints on food here.
Interviewer: That’s unusual.
Fehrensen: Course as I say, the beef was China beef. They raised it for the hides over there and then they sent the beef over here for us to eat.
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Interviewer: Who did the preparation of the food? Cooks also?
Fehrensen: All Army.
Interviewer: How about the prisoners, though? Did they work in the kitchen?
Fehrensen: Oh yes, they all worked.
Interviewer: They all worked in the kitchen. They were supervised then by non-prisoners?
Interviewer: Yeah, they had a big load of…We had a lot of old sergeants…Old time sergeants in charge of everything. They were the backbone of the Army. They were the backbone of the prison too.
Interviewer: Everybody ate at one time?
Fehrensen: Yes. They all ate at one time.
Interviewer: Was it just… everybody in the room at one time or . . .
Fehrensen: No.
Interviewer: Kind of like a constant. While they were coming in, someone leaving, and some were leaving . . .
Fehrensen: . . . leaving, some were coming in.
Interviewer: It was an ongoing affair.
Fehrensen: They didn’t fool around in here at all. Of course they had to check for silverware and things you know.
Interviewer: Do you remember how long a man was given to eat while he was here?
Fehrensen: No.
Interviewer: Any specific length of time?
Fehrensen: No, I’ve forgotten. What’s that there? We were there. Of course the prison had their own kitchen you understand. You know, our kitchen was something. We had our own Mess Officer and . . . but the food was good. The officers . . . everybody ate well. The soldiers ate well. I don’t know how many companies were here, but I remember that Hawkenson, Lieutenant Hawkenson had a company, and then Lieutenant Neskel had a company, and Lieutenant Bob Slaughter had a company.
Interviewer: And the company would be what?
Fehrensen: I think that’s 100 men. [Fehrensen speaking to someone other than interviewer] “How many in a company?” [faint voice replies] “125” They had at least three companies and they were the guards in here and they supervised...
Interviewer: How about the length of time in these cells? What would be your estimate, on say a 24-hour period of time. How many hours on average an inmate would be in a cell by himself?
Fehrensen: I wouldn’t say because they worked, you see. They worked in the laundry and the shoe department and they worked on the grounds planting flowers . . .
Interviewer: Would you say maybe fourteen hours?
Fehrensen: I don’t think they were out more than that. I think they didn’t get out till . . . they got out of the cells . . . I’ll tell you what time they got out of the cells. They got out of prison at 7 and then they got . . . cause I had sick call at 8. If they thought they had a sprained back or thumb, if they hit their hand with a hammer on purpose or whatever, so I found that they were going eating breakfast and they had sick call. And I’d have a line of maybe fifty men. So I said this is not going to go. So now you come up without breakfast and I got about ten.
Interviewer: Just cut it right down huh.
Fehrensen: Because I’d say, “you can work.” Well then you had to work maybe on the rock . . . they had a rock pile out here. Made you work for four hours without any breakfast. No coffee, no nothing. You know prisoners are very shrewd. Right away they figured things out.
Interviewer: Yeah. They figured things out fast don’t they. Yeah.
Fehrensen: Fifty, 75 people, then suddenly it’s ten or twelve. Cause they wouldn’t . . . if I said you’re certified them to work, then they had no breakfast. So then, quick, oh look everything around a prison. You can’t breathe around a prison without everybody knowing it quick.
Interviewer: Now was your hospital in this building?
Fehrensen: It was at the back end at the top.
Interviewer: Upstairs?
Fehrensen: Yes.
Interviewer: Would you like to go up there now?
Fehrensen: Take a look and see how many stairs it is.
Interviewer: Ok.
Fehrensen: I think I’ve got phlebitis in my leg from going up and down those stairs. Cause I was doing it a lot.
Interviewer: Do you remember wooden sailing vessels in the bay?
Fehrensen: No.
Interviewer: You don’t remember them? We’ll go up the stairs. You remember the general layout of this area? We’re at the entrance to the hospital now, and of course straight ahead this would be the dental office with his lab around the corner.
Fehrensen: Now this is the back end of the hospital.
Interviewer: Yes, it is. This is just the entrance.
Fehrensen: [inaudible] the kitchen.
Interviewer: Where was the kitchen . . . the food would be brought up from the regular mess hall below to the rear.
Fehrensen: But the major’s office is down at the other end.
Interviewer: Yes sir.
Fehrensen: And the operating room . . .
Interviewer: [inaudible] federal prison. Was this the operating room right here?
Fehrensen: Yes. And where’s the laboratory? We had a little lab…
Interviewer: Next door. Next room down.
Fehrensen: Minor surgery.
Interviewer: Just minor surgery mostly here?
Fehrensen: A lot of circumcisions.
Interviewer: [inaudible]
Fehrensen: You know why? The guys wanted to be in the hospital two or three days. And hemorrhoids. [inaudible] They’d hit their hand with a hammer to get to go to the hospital.
Interviewer: I see.
Fehrensen: Every trick there was they used.
Interviewer: They’d even hit their finger with a hammer?
Fehrensen: Yeah. When I came here, I was sure that every prisoner had been framed. You know, they all talked to me. When I left I knew they all belonged here.
Interviewer: Ok this would have been the lab and the pharmacy while this was a federal prison. Is this pretty much the same?
Fehrensen: The same one. It’s the same. I’m sure. There’s the drawers and everything.
Interviewer: Same drawers?
Fehrensen: No, those are not new.
Interviewer: Yeah, same drawers. And then the pharmacist/doctor would be through here, or his assistant. Controlled drugs locked up in here.
Fehrensen: Yes.
Interviewer: Did you have controlled drugs on the island?
Fehrensen: Oh yeah, sure. We had everything. Morphine, cocaine, Novocain. There’s another interested thing comes to mind when I was here. I examined every prisoner, every single prisoner on this island physically. I gave everybody a physical no matter whether they needed it or not. And I found several with tuberculosis. Active.
Interviewer: Is this something that they picked up overseas?
Fehrensen: I picked it up. I mean, I picked it up because I started…and I sent over a letter we have no way to take care of a tuberculosis patient. So the major was very happy about that. But here they were, associating with them when they were active TB.
Interviewer: Did they have an X-ray unit here?
Fehrensen: That’s a very interesting little thing. When I came here there was no X-ray. So I ordered an X-ray, and they’re small, and they brought it over.
Interviewer: Oh you got one?
Fehrensen: Yeah. We requisitioned one. And I came here . . . I was off for the day or something when it came, and the major didn’t know anything about X-ray, and he plugged it in to the wall.
Interviewer: Blew it up?
Fehrensen: [Makes blowing up sound] Blew it up. He didn’t put it on the… in the machine see.
Interviewer: Did he get in trouble?
Fehrensen: No, no he was a major. [laughing]
Interviewer: So they don’t get in trouble huh?
Fehrensen: So I requisitioned another tube. See we had the gas tube…So then I set it up then because I had seen it in my internship.
Interviewer: Well here’s our X-ray.
Fehrensen: We had one, but we didn’t have a table and all that. We just took a picture of [inaudible].
Interviewer: This would be kind of the treatment room [inaudible] Did you have a psychiatric section here?
Fehrensen: Yes.
Interviewer: Or place for observing . . .
Fehrensen: Major Frederick Allen, the psychiatrist.
Interviewer: Out of Letterman?
Fehrensen: No, he was a resident here. He was on our staff.
Interviewer: Oh he was.
Fehrensen: If you’ll notice on my…they have my discharge. He signed my discharge that day.
Interviewer: Oh, He was on duty.
Fehrensen: Yes, Major Frederick Allen. He was a psychiatrist.
Interviewer: I see.
Fehrensen: He was a permanent. And then the chaplains did a lot of counseling. A lot of the men had been married and had children and they needed counseling with a wiser . . . family troubles. And this major, this Captain Ossewaarde and here were very, very good. The men were good because they were so conscientious. It seemed like the prison help here [inaudible]. [background voices and laughter]
Tape stopped and started
Interviewer: How was it they would treat psychiatric patients when you were here?
Fehrensen: Well they didn’t have all this [inaudible]
Interviewer: Ok. What would they do? Put them under observation for a while?
Fehrensen: Yeah, they would put them under observation.
Interviewer: And then if more care was needed, they would transfer them?
Fehrensen: Yeah, they’d transfer to Letterman, everything went to Letterman.
Tape stopped and started
Interviewer: This would be the main hospital ward?
Fehrensen: [inaudible]
Interviewer: Capacity would be what?
Fehrensen: I think it was about 20 beds.
Interviewer: Twenty beds.
Fehrensen: I kept exact. I never did put it down, about 20 beds.
Interviewer: Would then the chief of… the major officer, the major…
Fehrensen: The major’s office in the back over to the left here.
Interviewer: That’s all the way to the back then.
Fehrensen: Just over to the left here.[inaudible] coming from the major’s office.
Interviewer: Right through the door. This far corner.
Fehrensen: This is Major Yeman’s. [talking in background] General office here.
Interviewer: General office off to the side. That was your office.
Fehrensen: [inaudible]
Interviewer: Did this entire building have the steam radiators in it when you were here for heat?
Fehrensen: I think so.
Interviewer: That was it. These then would probably be the same steam radiators that were here?
Fehrensen: I think so.
Interviewer: Course it’s kind of a mess now, isn’t it? Must apologize for all this. Do you remember it much bigger?
Fehrensen: To me in my mind it was bigger.
Interviewer: Yeah. This is it. Those are the outside walls so it’s probably – the dimensions are the same, they just added and subtracted walls for . . . probably also lowered the ceiling on you. That’s a false ceiling.
[background talking]
Tape stopped and started
Interviewer: The Secretary of War came out here?
Fehrensen: Yeah, Baker. His name was Baker.
Interviewer: General inspection was it?
Fehrensen: Yeah, Newton Baker. But I, being a… not a worshiper of brass, I didn’t see him.
Interviewer: You didn’t see him.
Tape stopped and started
… impressions of Leavenworth. You’re talking about the military prison?
Now did they use anything like this, at all? Just mostly the downstairs area. Do you have any idea of how many men at the time might have been down there?
Fehrensen: Oh no. I don’t know.
Interviewer: Maybe what, 2, 3 or . . . .
Fehrensen: I think it was about that. Long time.
Interviewer: But they were used downstairs. Now they had nothing then like this.
Fehrensen: They had to be examined every day.
Interviewer: Ok, how about a library privileges?
Fehrensen: Yeah, they had library books. Yeah, that was under Captain Ossewaarde again, the chaplain.
Interviewer: Did the men do a lot of reading?
Fehrensen: Yes. They did a lot of reading.
Interviewer: Along with correspondence courses?
Fehrensen: Correspondence courses, they took that. Then they had… As I remember they had teachers come over from the City.
Interviewer: Was that during the day in lieu of work or would this studying be done in addition to working hours?
Fehrensen: On the numbered prisoners, no. But on the ones that were going to be restored to duty, yes.
Interviewer: So it was done in lieu of work?
Fehrensen: Yeah. They were half soldiers. They either drilled or worked. Or else went to school. They did everything to restore them. If they were going to be a numbered prisoner, they didn’t want them.
Interviewer: They were due for discharge?
Fehrensen: Dishonorable.
Interviewer: Dishonorable. … it’s changed a bit. You call it the bull pen. Why… do you happen to know how it got the name bull pen?
Fehrensen: That’s the name it always was.
Interviewer: Bull pen, huh?
Fehrensen: Exercise yard actually.
Interviewer: How much time a day might a person be in the exercise yard?
Fehrensen: Oh…Several hours. They had ball games and all that sort of thing.
Interviewer: How about horseshoes?
Fehrensen: No, no horseshoes. Baseball.
Interviewer: Most did a lot of walking?
Fehrensen: Lots of walking. Walking and talking round in groups.
Interviewer: Did they have a good view of the Bay Area from bull pen?
Fehrensen: No there was a high wall there.
Interviewer: But on their way in, could they see the Bay Area?
Fehrensen: Oh yes, they could see.
Interviewer: They didn’t like having the view and not being able to go there?
Fehrensen: That’s right. And I could see why it was.
Interviewer: Do you remember the gardens on Alcatraz?
Fehrensen: The gardens?
Interviewer: The gardens.
Fehrensen: No.
Interviewer: The flowers and the trees.
Fehrensen: No.
Interviewer: You don’t remember any of those?
Fehrensen: The colonel had a…They had gardens alright, cause they had flowers on their tables, and they were raised here. They had gardeners.
Interviewer: Yeah. Now those were prisoners?
Fehrensen: Prisoners, yes. Those were very favorable detail to get on those you know.
Interviewer: Those were nice.
Fehrensen: Any time you get out of prison, you get out of your cell at 5 and go back at 9, you have to get the dishes washed and everything else, marvelous thing. I think the colonel had probably five trustees, for housekeeping and entertaining. They entertained a lot.
Interviewer: Did a lot of visiting dignitaries come here rather than go to the Presidio?
Fehrensen: Yes, yes lots. I don’t know rather than the Presidio, but there were any number of people came up. Generals, and cabinet members.
Interviewer: Well is this pretty much how you remember it? It was mostly dirt, I guess, when you were here.
Fehrensen: It was dirt.
Interviewer: And these concrete bleachers – were they here?
Fehrensen: I think those were there. But I wouldn’t swear to that. But I think they were. But this wasn’t, this was dirt.
Interviewer: How about the fence atop the wall. Was there a fence up on top of the wall or was it a just a wall?
Fehrensen: I don’t think the fence was there, but the wall was here.
Interviewer: Just the wall.
Fehrensen: Yes.
Interviewer: How about the little towers, the little cubbyholes in the corners, were there…?
Fehrensen: Oh sure.
Interviewer: Were there . . .
Fehrensen: Oh yes,
Interviewer: Those were there also?
Fehrensen: They were guards in all these. They watched this bull pen every second. It was under surveillance all the time.
Interviewer: Little groups to talk?
Fehrensen: Yes, just groups, just talk about…they had little groups like people have sororities. Some people like some people, and some people didn’t like…
Interviewer: This brings me up to a point maybe I should have asked inside. What was the method of assigning cells? Was there a process, any priorities for selections of cells, or assigning cells?
Fehrensen: I don’t know. I don’t know because you see I didn’t have anything to do with that.
Interviewer: Did they segregate?
Fehrensen: No, I don’t think so. Oh you mean, the homosexuals from the other?
Interviewer: Well, yes. Homosexuals or maybe a racial segregation?
Fehrensen: No there was no racial segregation.
Interviewer: How about a segregation as to where a man would work? What detail he might be in.
Fehrensen: He just had to be lucky… And pleasant and willing. If you were willing, you could get into the library. I mean you could get into anything.
Interviewer: How about cells in the cell house. Do you know of any cells that would have been more preferred than others? Maybe upstairs versus downstairs?
Fehrensen: Yes. They liked to be upstairs.
Interviewer: For any particular reason?
Fehrensen: No I don’t know. They liked… less prison or something.
Interviewer: More privacy maybe?
Fehrensen: Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: Now, do you remember this view?
Fehrensen: Oh sure, sure.
Interviewer: And, is this your laundry building to the right?
Fehrensen: Yeah, yeah. That’s it, shops and laundry.
Interviewer: Looks pretty much like it was when you were here?
Fehrensen: Exactly like it was. [background talking]
Interviewer: How about ‘Little Alcatraz’? Do you remember a rock shortly off… just a little ways offshore? See the waves just…
Fehrensen: I see it there, but I don’t remember it, but now I remember I was able to walk all around this island.
Interviewer: There was a catwalk around the island?
Fehrensen: Yeah.
Interviewer: Oh, tell me about the walkway that went around the island.
Fehrensen: There was, there was. It was an up and down, but you could go walk all around the island. It was a very narrow walkway, but you were able to walk it.
Interviewer: It was built into the cliffs too, wasn’t it?
Fehrensen: Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: And that was open to anybody? Family or . . .
Fehrensen: It was open to all the island, all the island personnel. There was no restrictions to walk, you could walk wherever you wanted to.
Interviewer: I see.
Fehrensen: Where were you going to go? But a prisoner, no.
Tape stopped and started
Fehrensen: You see they couldn’t come within two hundred yards of the island.
Interviewer: The boats couldn’t?
Fehrensen: I saw them shoot at a boat once.
Interviewer: Oh they did? If a boat came too close they would shoot at them? Did they just shoot at them, or near them to scare them?
Fehrensen: Just near them to scare them. But even medical officer’s carry .45s. And what a dangerous thing that was.
Interviewer: Yeah. [laughter in background]
Fehrensen: Mine was hanging near to the floor. They could have stolen, or hit me over the head with it.
Interviewer: How about the walkway though? Do you remember walking on it?
Fehrensen: Oh I have done it many times.
Interviewer: Was it wood mostly?
Fehrensen: No, no. It was just a little path. Just a path.
Interviewer: Well some of it was suspended on the cliffs though wasn’t it?
Fehrensen: Yes, you had some on the cliffs, but it was just more or less a very crude path.
Interviewer: Was it quite scenic to walk?
Fehrensen: Oh yes. You could see the whole thing. See everything.
Interviewer: Do you know when it was built?
Fehrensen: I have no idea. But it was here when I came here.
Interviewer: I see.
Fehrensen: I didn’t pay much attention.
Interviewer: The garden duty was a good deal. Good job wasn’t it.
Fehrensen: All those trustee jobs were good jobs. Those were desirable. But you had to earn them by being…observing the rules.
Voice: [Someone shouts out] By being good.
Fehrensen: Yeah if you observed the rules, you got along at Alcatraz very nicely… In the Army. But if you didn’t you were in trouble. When I say our Sergeants were tough.
Interviewer: Anything else you can remember offhand?
Fehrensen: I don’t, I think I’ve told you everything I know.
Interviewer: Just a whole lot of stuff huh.
Fehrensen: I think I’ve told you all I know. Glad to get it on record…like those things I took over to the museum. It’s good to get rid of them, before they get away.
Interviewer: Yeah, we appreciate that because they would be lost.
Fehrensen: I had a war bond, a war bond circular from the old world war Liberty bonds, when they would try to get you to buy bonds at that time. And I gave him that. And I gave you a picture of the Hospital Corps., the whole Hospital Corps. with all these officers in front.
Interviewer: From the island?
Fehrensen: From the island. It was taken right up here on the island, on the other side. And I gave him this big picture. I’m in it of course. The whole Hospital Corps, and all the officers. And I gave him that picture.
Interviewer: How many were on staff in the hospital?
Fehrensen: We had about… five medical officers and then we had, I would say maybe thirty.
Interviewer: Thirty on staff?
Fehrensen: Yeah, course we had no nurses you know. You would call them paramedics now.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Fehrensen: They gave my anesthetics. I taught them to give an anesthetic and all that kind of thing.
Interviewer: Did you do fishing while you were here on the island?
Fehrensen: No.
Interviewer: None whatsoever huh?
Fehrensen: No.
Interviewer: A lot of seals though and stuff on the island?
Fehrensen: Yes, yes.
Interviewer: Lots of things to do.
Fehrensen: There were all these sick calls and...
Interviewer: How many people would be in the hospital at a given time?
Fehrensen: Oh, maybe ten or fifteen.
Interviewer: Ten or fifteen, hmm.
Fehrensen: Then we’d ship them out you see. We’d take them over to Letterman. You know if they needed major surgery, any surgery that I… we couldn’t do it here. But I had a sergeant and he’d been a prisoner. Colored boy, Black boy, [Charles A.] Stroud, and I got him restored to duty and he was just marvelous. He was a marvelous… He found his niche. He was out of step with the Army. When I got him in there and I got him restored to duty, made a good anesthetist out of him. One of my most dependable corpsmen. And the pictures that they have over there. He’s going to give me a copy. I can get you a copy. Well, you’re not going to be here.
Interviewer: Well we’ll get some copies for our files.
Fehrensen: It shows the whole Hospital Corps…a very nice picture.
Interviewer: You’re Eighty-one, huh?
Fehrensen: Yep.
Interviewer: How old were you here then when you came here?
Fehrensen: Twenty-three.
Interviewer: You were twenty-three.
Fehrensen: Just finished my internship.
Interviewer: Where did you go from here when you left?
Fehrensen: I wanted to get out of the Army.
[Side 1 ends]
[Side 2 begins]
Fehrensen: [inaudible] they built steel ships. And it was a wartime ship deal, so I got the night surgeon job over there and then I got released from the Army.
Interviewer: So you left Alcatraz to go there.
Fehrensen: Yes. I stayed there about three months. Then I went back to Southern California to private practice.
Interviewer: Is that where you’re originally from? Southern California?
Fehrensen: I graduated USC in 1917.
Interviewer: 1917, good.
Fehrensen: Good? [laughing] And so then I had my internship, practiced for seven years and then I went over to L.A. County Hospital and became a specialist in obstetrics, as a resident.
Interviewer: And you’re now retired?
Fehrensen: Yeah, you bet I am. [talking in background] Surgeons like to have a left-hander’s system. Like a left hand on the dummy, there’s a right hand on the dummy. That’s the truth. [laughing]
Interviewer: This is what we call the sally port to the fort. Were there doors here when you came here? Iron cross doors. Something like the entrance to Fort Point?
Fehrensen: I don’t think so.
Interviewer: Ok. Cause sometime after the turn of the century evidently these doors disappeared. And actually the first prison in the Civil War was this room over here.
Fehrensen: No I don’t think so.
Interviewer: Some Confederate sympathizers evidently.
Fehrensen: They used those mules with those carts back and forth.
Interviewer: And then here you see the pulleys to the top, would be a drawbridge. [tape squeal] I can’t remember any of this area being intact then?
Fehrensen: No I don’t know. I didn’t come down except to get on the boat. This Major Ray was not my favorite person and I wasn’t… We weren’t… medical corps wasn’t his. But he was very nice to us, but we’d just go down to get on the boat. But this launch was very nice. The Alcatraz.
Interviewer: Oh…Right, The Alcatraz was the launch.
Fehrensen: Yeah. [inaudible]
Interviewer: [inaudible] exhibit area we’re going to go in.
Fehrensen: [inaudible]
Interviewer: These fellas are numbered prisons here then?
Fehrensen: Yes.
Interviewer: And that means that these fellows . . .
Fehrensen: Dishonorable discharge.
Interviewer: Dishonorable discharge. And notice the campaign hat on this fellow. He’s a military officer then or . . .
Fehrensen: May have been.
Interviewer: He’s a guard of some sort.
Fehrensen: [inaudible]. He must have been a guard then.
Interviewer: Yes. He’s got the campaign hat.
Fehrensen: The colonel insisted on campaign hats.
Interviewer: Campaign hats.
Fehrensen: The cavalry type.
Interviewer: This picture here shows the Officers’ Club where we were just looking at and the buildings to the rear towards the powerhouse area, pretty much …
Fehrensen: Exactly the same.
Interviewer: And this then is probably just taking . . . You do remember the boxing matches? How often would they have the boxing matches?
Fehrensen: Oh once a month.
Interviewer: Once a month.
Fehrensen: Yeah.
Interviewer: How many fights would there be on the card?
Fehrensen: Very short rounds and about ten bouts in an evening.
Interviewer: Ten bouts in an evening?
Fehrensen: Yeah, everybody wanted to be a boxer you know.
Interviewer: Was it the inmates against inmates?
Fehrensen: Yeah, yeah. And they’d also have people come over the to island from the athletic club in San Francisco. Boy’s Club.
Interviewer: Where would the people be coming from to the fights? Would it be from the Presidio or would it be just for Alcatraz people?
Fehrensen: Only Alcatraz. They didn’t allow . . .
Interviewer: People on the island…
Fehrensen: Visitors here were not welcome like this.
Interviewer: I see.
Fehrensen: You had to have a pass.
Interviewer: You do remember the fights?
Fehrensen: Oh yes. Sure.
Interviewer: Were they refereed fairly?
Fehrensen: Oh yeah. Everything was fair. Everything on this rock was fair. You’d be amazed how fair everything was. From the colonel down. When I say the colonel was interested in the prisoners, he interviewed every single prisoner on this island. Every one. And he instigated me to make physicals on every single one like I told you. Where I discovered that TB.
Interviewer: Doctor, thank you so much.
Fehrensen: Delighted to come over.
Interviewer: Well, you come back again, and I hope it was memorable anyway.
Fehrensen: I imagine there will still be some families of some of these people that I have mentioned in San Francisco yet.
Interviewer: Right.
Fehrensen: Because, they were all quite San Francisco oriented.
Interviewer: We’re picking up a lot of things as we go along here so.
Fehrensen: There was a family named Baker that might have some things. They were Spanish. Carmecita Baker, that lived in San Francisco. And they might have some pictures and things that you would want because the major… Major Yemans was very much interested in them see.
[Interview Ends]
Description
Interview of Dr. Gail Fahrenson about his time as a 1st Lieutenant surgeon with the Medical Corp on Alcatraz from 1918 to 1919
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