Video
U.S. Grant History Chat, Episode 10: Holly A. Pinheiro, Jr.
Transcript
- Hello everyone. This is Nick Sacco, park ranger at Ulysses S. Grant National Historic Site in St. Louis, Missouri and you're watching episode ten of the U.S. Grant History Chat. And it's my distinct pleasure today to be speaking with Dr. Holly Pinheiro Jr. He is a professor of history at Augusta college in Georgia and I was really excited to have Dr. Pinheiro on today because his scholarship is really exploring the African American experience during the Civil War era. And it's not so much about United States colored troops and military experiences, but family experiences, and the importance of understanding the experiences of African American women and children, and the ways that wars shaped black families during this time. So to start off our conversation, Dr. Pinheiro, what sort of specifically sparked your interest in history and exploring the Civil War era more specifically?
- Well, first off, thank you very much for this opportunity and I'm looking forward to it. My interest, I mean, I actually think about this quite a bit. I would say it would be my uncles, when I was probably about seven years old, giving me Frederick Douglass' biography and Malcolm X's biography. And I would say being committed to me learning the history of the African American experience in a way that wasn't always discussed in middle and high school. And then the continue on of that is history was the only class that really moved me in a way to, I mean, I love my job. I get paid to ask questions and read about them. Like, I love it. I mean, cause it's like, I'm always like, ooh, I have a new question. Why is? So I think that for me is what makes history fun and exciting and engaging.
- Absolutely. Yeah. I read Frederick Douglass's, his first autobiography early on in school, very influential and talked about watching the movie Glory, was also a big inspiration for me to get into history in the first place too. Absolutely. Now some of your scholarships that I've had the chance to read, you've really stressed the importance of understanding African American women, the ways that they sort of aided the Union war effort and aided their husbands on the battlefield. Would love to hear just some of your insights into this particular topic, which has not always been explored by Civil War historians.
- So I think that for me, it's more about, my research is looking at the Northern African American experience, for those, who in many cases were free-born, in places like Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and New York City, New York. There's been a lot of great scholarship on the border and Southern experiences, so whether we're talking Stephanie McCurry, Thavolia Glymph has got a new book out, you know, Silber and Catherine Clinton's "Divided Houses", which is like a classic, right? One of those you must read. And the new one by the University of Georgia Press, which I believe is the "Household War." There are so many, right? But I think I've always been curious about what is life like for African Americans, the non-elites, right? So the non-Fortens, the non-Purvises, the working class, the working poor individuals who we often recognize are very essential, right? To abolitionism, but also to just community survival. In my dissertation, which compared Philly and New York, I learned that it was African American women that were doing the mobilization for literacy and these places, they're the ones canvassing going door to door to get wider readership for The Christian Recorder, which was one of the most important African American presses that was tied to the African Methodist Episcopal Church. But also as my book and research highlights, they're the ones publishing along with the weekly Anglo African, the letters and stories of black soldiers. Which is awesome because it's a great mouthpiece, which does have its problems, but it brings to light the Black story in a different way, compared to when looking at The New York Times or other presses at that moment. I think there is a lot that can continue to be said about what does it mean for African American families who are free-born and their experiences in the 19th century. The pieces that you're highlighting, I wanted to unpack the importance of African American women in the North and the wartime mobilization, right? That Williams, Serrel, and others have noted, rightfully so, that it was black women going to the camps, whether we're talking at Rikers Island, where the 20th, the 26th, and 31st United States Colored Infantry are training. So provide them with care, right? But also in Philly, where the 3rd, 6th, 8th, and many other regiments are going to mobilize and train at Camp William Penn. They're the ones doing the canvassing for the money for the regimental flags. They're at these public events. So Alessandra Lorini, she often talks about, that they're being visible in these public spaces, and what that means. Judith Giesberg's work in others, a highlight that they're putting themselves on the line by taking public transportation to go visit these military camps to be seen. And I put quotes around that, as women, when they're always seen as women every day in their communities, right? And it's just, they're trying to force white society to recognize what they already know every second of every day. Right? And it's, it's a very complicated aspect. My, hopefully, next book, will unpack this even more about the racial politics of wartime mobilization in places like Philadelphia, because there is a privileging of white women, but there's not so much, black women have to find other ways to involve themselves and be recognized for it in these spaces.
- Yeah. And one thing that I remembered distinctly, is you talk about Congressman William Kelley from Pennsylvania and how he addressed African American women, but he had this tendency. He always referred to them as girls and not women. And it just really stuck to me is, you know, condescending, but it's also just another way to sort of highlight a wedge between the ways politicians looked at white women and their contributions and African American women.
- Yeah. Well that, and actually that piece is also part of the book. I mean, you're referring to one of the famous speeches that also Anna Dickinson was a part of and Frederick Douglas, but yeah. When Congressman Kelley steps on the stage, he takes a very different approach to everyone else. I think in some ways it's telling because he is acknowledging the importance of women's role in the wartime mobilization, right? Like, so there is that empowering aspect, but then he does go exactly a negative way by saying that their only value is through their femininity and in like their connections, but not through what they're doing as far as supporting and what they have been doing anyway with helping refugees that are coming into these cities, 'cause Charlotte Forten talks about that in her memoirs, for example. So they're part of these societies that have been helping, you know, African Americans in many ways. But, yeah, one of the interesting quotes I think is when he goes after mothers, black mothers specifically, and says something like, "Mothers, you suffered through the pangs of maternity to create a man." Right? And it's like, that line just really annoyed me on so many levels, because it's like, they are men, every second of every day, just like these are women. But he's saying that if these men don't serve, then they're cowards. So therefore, what does it say about the women? But as my book will unpack, it's like a lot of these men come home. If they do come home, right? With various disabilities, seen and unseen, that are gonna create a lot of lasting problems for these families. And one of the key points of the book, which does center around the families, is that I believe that it's important to not just focus on the Civil War, right? When we talk about the Black experience in Philadelphia. Because the book is going from 1850 up until the 1930s. Right? Talk, about to highlight that, African Americans have been in a war every second of their lives for survival against racism, right? And that the Civil War opens up a new pathway to fight this. But then at the same time also shows them that racism is going to persist anyway, within the structures of military service or the racial politics of a pension.
- Sure, sure. So you're kind of navigating that system in a new way, in a sense? Absolutely. Now, here in St. Louis, historically we had, we had Benton Barracks, which is in North St. Louis. It's a park today, but the USCT soldiers, the black soldiers that served out of St. Louis, some of them were free African Americans who came from places like Kansas and Iowa, and were stationed here in St. Louis. But, with your focus on Northern cities and Northern mobilization, love to hear a little bit about what that experience might have been like. I know one thing you mentioned in your scholarship is that free Blacks in Philadelphia, a lot of them chose not to serve in USCT regiments during the war. So I'd love to hear a little bit about that.
- Yeah, I mean, so that actually gets to the core of the book. Since I'm focusing on 178 soldiers that I can prove through the records were serving and enlisted in either the 3rd, the 6th, or the 8th USCI, United States Colored Infantry, which were mobilized and trained in Philadelphia, because I really wanted to unpack how do local African Americans, who are dealing with a city that has one of the most contentious histories of racial violence, large and small, how they understand, supported, and didn't, wartime mobilization. And also since there is a strong Black church component and communal support, there's the Institute for Colored Youth. Like there's a lot happening in Philly. Like it is without question, a very important city to focus on, but a lot of the families, or the people don't enlist, right? So the majority of people that are coming in to serve in these regiments are from either neighboring counties or states, or as maybe a future article of mine will unpack, a lot of them from international like locations. They're from Canada, they're from Cuba, they're from Jamaica, from Germany. I mean, they're from all over, which is to me, highlights that these regiments, as other scholars have already noted, they don't necessarily represent their city or state. They represent the Black experience, right? Because they're free-born, they're freed, they're American, they're everywhere. And that they for different reasons are coming to engage in this combat. I believe my second chapter actually talks about the politics of recruiting, right? So in each location, whether we're talking Boston, Massachusetts, New York City, New York, and Philadelphia, they're actually competing with each other and complaining in the press about why are all the Black Philadelphians actually going up to Boston? Why are they going to New York? Why aren't they coming here? We heard a rumor that they're in Rhode Island. And I imagined that that is also playing out when we talk about other locations, whether we're talking about the Iowa 60th, or even in the border areas. Because one of my soldiers, Benjamin Davis, and you track his family throughout this. And to that point, this is actually a study of about a thousand individuals. So even though it's 178 soldiers, it's about their families. The Davis's have a very sad story. Benjamin tried to enlist in the 54th Massachusetts. In doing so, he leaves his wife, who was pregnant with their only son. He misses the birth of Jerome. Their child. And he gets a staph infection along the way. And in the opening of the book, I highlight his widow, Mary Leaden, who basically says in 1884, what was the point? You, as the United States Army and government took away my husband for this thing, and our family has suffered. And in many ways, she's basically saying, she's asking these bigger questions that I think we need to think about is, what does it mean for a family, who have to live with the consequences of this, who are struggling every second of every day against the oppressiveness of racism, right? That's navigating through education, employment, living situations. And now you've taken away an important individual because even children are gonna, as the book talks about, some of these future soldiers, actually didn't go to school and they worked, and they were critical to their households. So once you take them away, their families are going to suffer in some horrific and lasting ways. The story's not as positive as some would like it to be, I think.
- Sure. Absolutely. And, you know, I think you're getting to some of the larger questions that historians and those of us in the parks service, like to address that, you know, we have to kind of move beyond just focusing on tactics or military strategy that has its role, but what are we fighting over? What is the purpose of this fight? And that letter from 1884, you know, look at the ways that reconstruction was sort of torn apart by that point in time. And you can see a family like the Davis's that are, you know, kind of asking what was the point of all of this?
- Right, yeah. To me it's really, the crux of the book is about these families and their persistence. Like it's easy, I think, for some people to say, well, this is a story that's just showing the tragedy and the hardships. I was like, but actuality, this is about empowerment, persistence and dedication in the demands for their sacrifices, right? Because this is obviously as the false cause, as Adam Domby points out, and all this like lost cause myth, right? But that black families remain persistent. And as the book will disclose later on, they reach, at least one of the family members reaches the First Lady. Right? And they develop a relationship through these correspondences that I had not anticipated in the records. But to me, it was like, it was such a powerful story, right? That Eleanor Roosevelt, you know, is writing this woman, a woman who says outright, I'm a poor black woman from Philadelphia. I know you have The Great Depression and you've done so much for black people. Can you help me? And Eleanor responds. Repeatedly. Right? And that to me is about, she doesn't have to do that, but she is wanting, in my argument demanding, that you, and I say you as society, do not forget what we gave. Our family.
- Sure, absolutely. This is wonderful. Thank you for sharing that with us. And, to just kind of wrap up here, the book that you're working on, it's sort of in progress still, it's tentatively titled "The Family Civil War." It will be published through the University of Georgia Press. And you were saying probably about next summer, summer of '21. So just love to hear, you know, if people want to follow your progress and maybe on social media and what you're working on. Just maybe tell us a little bit about what we can do to learn more about your projects.
- Yeah. Thank you. So I'm on Twitter. I think it's PhUsct or you can just find it through my name. I've been lucky enough to have an essay that's gonna be coming out with Adam Domby and Simon Lewis. That's gonna actually try to problematize what does it mean for African American soldiers who are serving during reconstruction from the North or liberators, and protecting the freedoms of formerly enslaved people, but in the process will lose their own freedom in a multitude of ways, which will lead to some big problems for their families. And I think that to me is what's important is that we understand the human component, the material realities for people, right? So that, what I'm hoping is that this pushes us, along with James G. Mendez, his work "A Great Sacrifice," to recognize that families matter, right. And in a very important, and in some ways, you know, moving aspects, I'd say my hope is to my next book, will most likely be looking at Philadelphia's wartime mobilization. And, you know, I've got ideas for many other projects. My hope to all hope is that this becomes a movie, right? Like I'm trying to actually write a screenplay because the stories are so compelling. And I think there's so many that I didn't get to that could be, you know, Netflix miniseries or something. So if there is anyone out there listening that wants to move forward with that, I'm all ears.
- Sure. Shoot for the stars, right?
- Exactly.
- Absolutely. Well, fantastic. Thank you, Dr. Holly Pinheiro, Jr. Thank you for being with us today. We look forward to reading your book when it comes out next year, and thank you for being on the show today.
- Thank you very much.
Description
For episode 10 of the U.S. Grant History Chat, Dr. Holly A. Pinheiro, Jr., professor of history at Augusta University, discusses his scholarship on African American experiences during the Civil War Era, particularly free Northern Black families. His book "The Families' Civil War" is forthcoming with University of Georgia Press in the summer of 2021.
Duration
17 minutes, 14 seconds
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