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Oral History Interview with Raymond Wolters Pt. 1
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[Pause 00:00 - 00:09] Oloye Adeyemon: Brown v. Board Oral History Collection. Newcastle County, Delaware school segregation. Desegregation interviews. Interviewee Mr. Wolters, interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted in the home of Mr. Wolters and on Sandy Point, Maryland near the Bohemian River on the eastern shore of Maryland on August 16, 2001. These interviews are made possible by the Brown v. Board on History Research Project funded by the National Park Service for the summer of 2001 as part of the Brown v. Newark Education, national historic site or history project. Mr. Wolters, what is your full name? Raymond Wolters: Raymond Wolters. Oloye Adeyemon: And what is your birthdate? Raymond Wolters: July 25, 1938. Oloye Adeyemon: And where were you born? Raymond Wolters: Kansas City, Missouri. Oloye Adeyemon: And your parents' names Raymond Wolters: Marge and Ray. Oloye Adeyemon: And your mother's maiden name? Raymond Wolters: Riley. Oloye Adeyemon: And where were they born? Raymond Wolters: My mother in Leavenworth, Kansas. My father in Atchison, Kansas. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, we appreciate this. Biographical information's a little less, I guess, so important, um, because you, uh, were not a plaintiff or student at the time. You in fact are an author of one of the leading works of, uh, studies in the Brown v. Board of Education, uh, Supreme Court case in Berg Brown. And we are interviewing you at the time of your collecting oral histories for Newcastle County Delaware, uh, collection because you live and work in this area. Raymond Wolters: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: Um, if I may continue to give a biographical information, uh, what did your father, mother do for a living? Raymond Wolters: My mother was a housewife. My father worked for, uh, National Insurance Company. He was the manager of the office of the employers group insurance company in Los Angeles. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, and, um, what have—what is it that you do for a living? What are some of the things that you've done in your career? Raymond Wolters: I'm a history professor, uh, at the University of Delaware, and I have written a number of books on 20th century American history. Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 02:56]. Raymond Wolters: Almost all of them, uh, dealing in one respect or another with Black/White race relations. Uh, most recently, a book that will be out next year, uh, is a book called Du Bois and His Rivals, which describes the, uh, rivalries between Du Bois, uh, and Book of Washington, Walter White, Marcus Garvey and some others, uh, focuses on his personal relations with his principal rivals. I've also done a book on the, uh, civil rights policies of the Reagan administration and the civil rights policies of the Franklin D. Roosevelt administration. Oloye Adeyemon: Who were the names of those principals? Raymond Wolters: On the Reagan administration the book was called Right Turn. And, uh, on the Roosevelt Administration, the title was Negroes in The Great Depression. I also did a book on Black college rebellions of the 1920s. So, I've done all together— Oloye Adeyemon: [Crosstalk 03:54]. Raymond Wolters: - entitled—that was called The New Negro on Campus: Black College Rebellions of the 1920s. So, altogether, I've done five books all dealing with one aspect or another of the civil rights movement. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, how long have you been at the University of Delaware? Raymond Wolters: I've been at Delaware, uh, since 1965. Oloye Adeyemon: And, uh, were you teaching before that? Raymond Wolters: I taught two years at the University of California Berkeley before coming to Delaware. Oloye Adeyemon: And where did you study? Raymond Wolters: I was an undergraduate at Stanford University and a graduate student at Berkeley. Oloye Adeyemon: And were your degrees in history? Raymond Wolters: Yes, all my degrees—both my degrees BA and, uh, doctorate are in history. Oloye Adeyemon: So, is Dr. [unintelligible 04:38]. Raymond Wolters: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: How do you pronounce it? Wil— Raymond Wolters: Wolfers. Oloye Adeyemon: It's W-O-L? Raymond Wolters: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: And I guess, um, one question, uh, I wanna ask is how did you get interested in this subject? Is this something that interested you at the level of scholarship in college, or was it something that was result of earlier interest? Raymond Wolters: Yeah, I would have to say, to be honest, that a couple of things got me interested in the civil rights movement. One, I was a college student from 1956 to '65, so there were a lot of civil rights demonstrations and so forth at that time. And I participated on the periphery of three of 'em, uh, in San Francisco and Oakland and Berkeley. So, I was kind of interested in the civil rights movement. Uh, the other thing that got me interested was that I-I had to write a doctoral dissertation. And the requirement for a doctoral dissertation is that you tell a story that hasn't been told. Uh, and at that time, there were an awful lot of subjects in Black history that just hadn't been told. And I happened to hit upon the fact that there was no book on, uh, how, uh, Roosevelt's new deal had affected Black people. So, put sort of two and two together. As I say, my involvement in the civil rights movement was kind of peripheral. I was involved in three demonstrations, but I came from a fairly conservative background, a prosperous background. Uh, so I was not a-a student, uh, activist or radical. I was a person who was vaguely sympathetic with the civil rights movement, and then discovered that there were a lot of subjects in Black history that nobody had written about, and so I decided that it was my opportunity to-to get a good dissertation. And after that, one thing leads to another, you know, while I was-while I was working on the doctoral dissertation, I used the papers of W.E.B Du Bois, and I started going through them and I learned all about, uh, his involvement in one of the Black College rebellions of the 1920s. So, when I finished the first one— Oloye Adeyemon: Which was that? Raymond Wolters: Well, he was involved in the, uh, inspired and-and, uh, actually paid a subsistence stipend to the student leader of the rebellion at Fisk University. The leader was a guy named George Streeter. And I discovered in the Du Bois's paper that for a few months in 1925, Du Bois was sending Streeter enough money to live on— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: - so that Streeter could organize the student revolt at Fisk. Oloye Adeyemon: And what were their objectives? Raymond Wolters: What were their objectives at Fisk? Well, their objectives were—interesting that you should ask. Fisk had an extremely strait laced puritanical disciplinary regime. For example, male and female students—if I remember correctly—were supposed to use separate walks on the campus. They could date, but only with chaperones present. Uh, there were other such policies. Fisk was a congregational school, religious school. It was clinging to the old ways longer than most White schools, but it was doing so—Du Bois himself was very puritanical in many ways. But Fisk was doing so on the grounds that Black youths were particularly sensual and-and would be impossible to control if they weren't subjected to extraordinary discipline. And it was that aspect of the policy that really irked Du Bois. The-the fact that the leaders of the school were saying essentially that Blacks had to be subjected to extra severe discipline because they were Black, and that's what the students were in revolt against. And that's what Du Bois was in revolt against. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. When you began writing, uh, beyond your dissertation, who was your intended audience? Did you have anyone in mind in trying to just write about interesting subjects or did you want to educate people? If so, who-who do you feel most needed to, to understand this material? Raymond Wolters: Uh, good question. I have always tried to write for an audience of intelligent readers so that anybody who reads the morning newspaper could—if they wished—understand my books. However, I have also had to write for an audience of fellow professors because I needed to get tenure and promotion and that sort of thing. So, what this means usually is that my works are deeply researched in a lot of manuscript collections based on a lot of interviews, a lot of documents, but written fairly simple. The fact of the matter is that not very many general readers are gonna read a book about a student rebellion at Fisk University in 1925. And remember the title of that book was Black College Rebellions of the 1920s. I had a chapter on the student rebellion at Fisk, another chapter on the rebellion at Howard, another on the rebellion at-at, uh, Hampton and so forth. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: Not that many people read these books. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: Uh, generally my books sell between a low of 2000 copies and a high of about six—two to 6,000 copies. So, that's a little better than the usual academic sale, but it's certainly not best seller numbers. So, when you say, who's my audience? [Crosstalk 11:21]. Oloye Adeyemon: Well, first I was asking who your intended on this was. And now I guess I would want to ask, who is it from once you've been able to determine has read your books? Who—what-what audience or what-what profile would you say [crosstalk 11:38]? Raymond Wolters: I just read my—other professors have read my books. Other profe— Oloye Adeyemon: Particularly ones that are teaching in this area? Raymond Wolters: Yeah. Others—particularly ones who are teaching in the area of race relations, a fair number of non-pro have read them. It's hard for me to know. I know that, uh, you know, the, uh, the Black poet Pulitzer Prize winner, Gwendolyn Brooks— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: - one called up—once called up a friend of mine to ask if I was White or Black 'cause she couldn't tell from the writings. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: So, Gwendolyn Brooks will find—will occasionally pick up the book, but I don't know. I don't get that much feedback. Oloye Adeyemon: I see. Raymond Wolters: I get a few letters, uh, after each book, but the le—number of letters I will receive so far for each book— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: - is less than 10. So, you know, only about five to 10 people will write to me. Oloye Adeyemon: I asked because in the process of doing these interviews, we-we've interviewed Whites and Blacks, um, pretty-pretty much, uh, it's pretty much evenly divided. And we're finding that probably about half have comfortably made any statement one way or the other. It indicated that they feel—and this is coming from both Blacks and Whites—they feel that this is a story that is, uh, important because it addressed problems Black were going through. Then, I've, uh, found that half of those people [facing voice 13:32] have said this was a problem that everybody faced. This was something that was a problem with the country. And the Supreme Court decision was not a decision for Black people. You know, I mean, there are others that say a decision that, uh, you know, again, some Blacks in likes feel that it's a story about Black struggle, [fading voice 13:57] story about American contradiction and so on. And so, I was wondering if you—in the process of doing your writing, were hoping to also change attitude 'cause sometimes, uh, because the scholarship on your level— Raymond Wolters: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - is often, uh, objective and you're dealing with, uh, material. It doesn't always involve with personal preferences or feelings, or you're not always writing to-to sway attitude. I—when I read the book, I got the feeling that you—that your feeling—you-your-your feelings and opinions, even though you-you know, you objectively research. Um, I think it was clear that you had strong feelings and I didn't know if you were writing as well to change attitudes. And if so, whose attitude did you feel needed the most [fading voice 14:56]? Raymond Wolters: Well, that's a-that's a perceptive question. Uh, if you take my work as a whole, all five books, I-I think it's fair to say that, uh, I am quite sympathetic with the Black civil rights movement up until about 1970. And around 1970, I think the leaders of the civil rights movement got on the wrong track. Oloye Adeyemon: And how do you feel when they got on the wrong track? Raymond Wolters: And—well, I'll get back to it. And I think the same is true of the courts. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: So, that-that brown itself was, I think, a very sensible opinion and one that not only helped Blacks, but helped the whole country. But, uh, these decisions that come down in the late '60s and early '70s, starting with Green v. New Kent County, and then these other busing decisions, I think have been fundamentally mistaken. And, uh, the difference is this, I think the civil rights movement, as long as it was asking for desegregation, was on the right track. But when they jumped track and sort of demanded that Blacks be dispersed as a 15 or 20 percent minority, when they implied that you couldn't have good schools unless there was a majority White, you had to have busing to get a majority White. So, I think they got off on the wrong track. So, you're-you're right, that some of my work, especially the Burden of Brown, work directed towards, uh, saying that the civil rights movement had gotten off on the wrong track for busing and, uh, uh, yes. Now, whether-whether that's had any influence or not, I do-I do not know. Uh, clearly since I've written that book, the opinion in the country and in the courts has turned against busing. And now the Supreme Court has all but said, "Whoops, we were mistaken back in Green and Swan. And you don't have to continue with bussing." The decisions of the Supreme Court that have come down since 1991, particularly the, uh, Dowell v. Oklahoma City case of 1991, and the, uh, Jenkins v., uh, whoever. Anyway, the Kansas City case involving Jenkins as one of the plaintiffs, uh, are really a—the Supreme Court is turning away from Green and Swan and Evans v. Buchanan and back door— Oloye Adeyemon: Evans v. Buchanan being the case [crosstalk 17:59]. Raymond Wolters: Delaware. Yeah. They're turning away from that. And in fact, in Delaware, the Supreme—the Circuit Court following the lead of the Supreme Court, the Circuit Court has now said, "You don't have to continue with busing. You can go back to neighborhood schools if you wish, even though that means that some schools will be mostly Black and others will be mostly White." And the state legislature is passed a law saying that that's what we should do. And beginning next year, that's what we're going to do. So, the, uh, the era of busing is coming to an end in Delaware, and it's coming to an end in lots of places. Now, whether my book had anything to do with that, I don't know. I think maybe it had a little bit to do because people like me—see this book-this book didn't exactly—it-it wasn't a right-wing screen. It-it got picked as the best book of the year on a legal subject, uh, by the American Bar Association, which gave it—its Silver Gavel Award. And there were a couple of other books about the same time, one by Lino Graglia called Disaster by Decree and some others. And it's-it may be that these books have had a little bit of influence in turning the tide against busing, but of course, the main reason that the tide has turned against busing is that busing hadn't worked that well. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. I wanna go back 'cause there are several issues, and this is very relevant to this study. And, uh, while you, again, are not involved directly in the case, um, you have looked at a lot of these cases and, um, you have, you know, strong arguments for your position. Uh, going back, uh, I got the feeling that you had some objections to the busing remedy in theory, and you have some feelings about the evidence of busing, in fact. Raymond Wolters: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: You know, in theory what was it that you initially thought was wrong with that-with that approach? Raymond Wolters: Well, the-the theory is that you see what the Constitution says is that no state may deprive any person of equal protection of the law. Now, to me, that means that the state cannot say, just because you're Black, you have to go to this school, or just because you're White, you have to go to that school. That's what I understood the Supreme Court to have decided in Brown, that racial discrimination by the state was unconstitutional. But now what happens is that after the schools are desegregated, you don't get an even dispersion of the races. You get some mixing here and some mixing there. But we all know that, uh, some neighborhoods are mostly Black, and some neighborhoods are mostly White, some are mostly poor, and some are mostly rich. And so, if you assign students to the nearest school without regard to race, there will be some Blacks in every school and some Whites in every school but there won't be an even mix. Now, the court stepped in beginning around 1968 with Green—the Supreme Court with Green v. Newcastle County. Actually, the Fifth Circuit Court did it a little earlier in a case called Jefferson. But the Supreme Court in 1968 steps in and basically says that you have to have a more or less equal balance. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: Now, why? They say, because the state is somehow responsible— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: - for the unequal pattern of settlement. The Blacks don't freely choose to live with other Blacks. The poor, with other poor, the rich and the White, you know, it's because of the state. That I think is-is fundamentally wrong. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: I think that most people choose where they wanna live, either because they're more comfortable or because they can't afford anything else. And it's not because the state makes them. So, that when Black people moved into Wilmington, into Delaware, let's say, when Black people came up here from South Carolina or wherever, they were likely to settle in Wilmington because there were Black churches in Wilmington, there were Black clubs in Wilmington. Some of 'em even liked the idea that there was a predominantly Black high school with Black teams, and they could go to the basketball games and the football games and cheer on. You see what I mean? It wasn't that the state made them do that, but the courts, because the Constitution says no, the state has to be responsible. I mean, there's nothing in the Constitution which prevents individuals from discriminating. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: If you want to-to date tall girls or short girls, that's your privilege. I mean, the state isn't supposed to discriminate on arbitrary grounds, like short and tall, but that's—if you want to, that's something else. So, I think that the fundamental assumption where the courts went wrong was their assumption that the state was responsible for the disparate pattern of settlement. Actually, I think it was a result of first economics and second personal choices. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, weren't there in some cases, uh, suggestions that things like red lining and covenants had— Raymond Wolters: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: - had helped that, and that the states in fact had not done their part early on in preventing those patterns from taking place. Raymond Wolters: Yes. And that's probably true. Uh, it, it may be, but, you know, uh, the red lining is-is a more complicated subject. But say these restrictive covenants, most of them haven't been enforced since about 1945 [crosstalk 24:32]. Oloye Adeyemon: But I guess some-some suggest that because of early, uh, patterns of that type, that these types of, uh, residential demographic-demographics had already—were-were in place. Raymond Wolters: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: That they had been caused by earlier, uh, attitudes or—because this wasn't always something that was underground. This was something that was— Raymond Wolters: Well, that's how the-that's how the courts in the late '60s and early '70s found state responsibility. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: They said back in the past, the states had, uh, enforced, restrictive covenants, or they had, uh, located most of the, uh, uh, subsidized housing in one area— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: - but not another area. The state had done something and therefore the state was responsible. Now, what the courts have decided more recently, since 1991, is that the effect of these state policies, if not de minimis, is too attenuated to be responsible for the separate pattern. And that really, the pattern of concentration is primarily due to individual choices and economic circumstances. I mean, if you would— Oloye Adeyemon: So, you guys agree basically with that later position that the court has taken? Raymond Wolters: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: You-you kind of felt that way when you were right [crosstalk 25:58]. Raymond Wolters: Exactly. If-if you guys or I buy a house now, it's because we can afford it and because for some reason, we think we'll like it there. And whether there was a restrictive covenant 50 years ago, or redlining 50 years ago, I don't think affects us that much. We-we just—we buy what we like and what we can afford. And-and that's as it should be, I think. And I think these, uh, in-in some ways, uh, so that was my-my first-my first, uh, uh, objection was I thought that the courts were making more of these few evidences of state action, uh, than they should have. And the courts have come to agree with me because the courts no longer do that. In fact, they-they say that these past practices are too attenuated. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: Too far back and too minimal in their current effect to be all that significant. The other thing was that it just seemed to me that-that the busing wasn't going to work very well in practice. Oloye Adeyemon: Why? What did you suspect? Raymond Wolters: Well— Oloye Adeyemon: It was gonna be the problem, and did it in fact actualize itself? Raymond Wolters: Yeah. I suspected that the problem—the-the—you see the re—the-there's two reasons that the busing hasn't worked well. One is that they changed the curriculum to go along with it instead of sticking. I mean, this is-this is where, where this guy Lance Murphy, the Black cop out in Topeka was absolutely. Oloye Adeyemon: He was one of the people that you interviewed when you— Raymond Wolters: Yeah, he was-he was absolutely right when he said, you know, most-most Black parents want their kids to-to be in orderly classes that stress basic education and-and teach the subject matter. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: But when they went to this desegregation busing, they instigated all sorts of new teaching methods, cooperative learning, mastery learning, uh, anything but, uh, back to basics. You know, it was a highly, uh, just a different approach to learning and I suspect— Oloye Adeyemon: And wasn't that a part of the general evolution or attempts to find new ways to teach? It wasn't necessarily a result of desegregation? Raymond Wolters: Well, I think it was because you see the-the-the, we-we get into a, uh, thorny problem here, but let's-let's face it straight out. If you integrate the kids, uh, in a school, you bust 'em all over to come and then you, uh, put them in the classroom, you're gonna find that the Black kids on average are not up to the level of the rest of the class. Oloye Adeyemon: And what would be the reasons you think? Raymond Wolters: We-we-we will come into that in just a minute. Oloye Adeyemon: Okay. Raymond Wolters: Uh, but it's pretty well established that they're a little bit below the, uh, the average in the grade school and a little bit more below in high school. And so, if you organize the classes according to ability— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: - like you have the varsity, the junior varsity, and the freshman teams, you're gonna get some Blacks on the varsity, more on the junior varsity and still more down on the—in the lower level. And the White will be reversed. There'll be some Whites in the bottom and so forth. But you're-you're not gonna have an even mix if you group the students by ability. Now a lot of people say it doesn't make sense to bus people all over to get an equal ratio in the school if then you resegregate them through ability grouping within the individual classes. So, we have to find some other way to organize the individual classes. So, we have to find some other way to organize the individual classes. And this usually is what they call heterogeneous grouping or non-directional teaching, cooperative learning, uh, uh, a lot of discussion and so forth. Raymond Wolters: It-it becomes hard for the teacher to stand up in front of the class and teach, say the quadratic equation if some kids are doing fifth grade arithmetic and others eighth grade and still others are ready to do the quadratic equation. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: So, they have to do all this grouping within the class, and the teacher becomes more of a facilitator and consultant, but not a directed lecture teaching the stuff. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: Well, that's what happens in the dsec—in the bussed schools, in the integrated schools. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: And I think a lot of people thought that wouldn't work, uh, from-from the start and they were right. Now you asked, why are the Black kids below? I think that's pretty obvious. That's because of economics and it's because of family background and so forth. Uh, but that doesn't mean that you can—that-that it's good for anybody to mix kids who are of quite different academic levels in the same class. Oloye Adeyemon: How-how does economics affect that? Raymond Wolters: I don't know. But we do have—we have pretty good evidence that no matter what the race, Black, White, or yellow, the kids that come from the poor families don't do as well in school as the kids from the rich families. Oloye Adeyemon: And— Raymond Wolters: And since a higher proportion of Whites are rich, you get a higher proportion of Whites doing well in school. Oloye Adeyemon: And how would the family background affect that? Raymond Wolters: Well, I-I think the family backgrounds in here affects too that—in the sense that if the family is-is better off, you've got two parents helping with rearing the child. You've got a separate bedroom for each kid, you can help with the homework and so forth. Uh, I don't think it's—it—you—it's very surprising at all that kids from poor families and single mothers and who are living in crowded and impoverished circumstances don't do well in school. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: Well, don't do as well in school as kids from more privileged backgrounds. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: The problem is, I think that when you mix these kids, not so much in the same school, but in the same class, particularly in subjects like math and science, actually, I think you can mix them all pretty well in some subjects like history, which I teach, but I think it's hard to mix them in subjects like, uh, math and science. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: Uh, if-if you-you just-you just damage the education level there. Oloye Adeyemon: I have a couple questions here. And first is just a clarification of, um, definitions. When-when we, um, talk about, uh, desegregation, uh, and I recognize that many people make a distinction between desegregation and integration. Raymond Wolters: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: Desegregation being, uh, removing, uh, the-the restrictions on where students can go, uh, that are imposed— Raymond Wolters: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - or imposed, uh, through, uh, class versus [unintelligible 33:50] and-and then trying to achieve racial values, I think is what most people would consider integration. Raymond Wolters: Yeah. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, are we in agreement that the intent of those who in the south, uh, in some of these cases fought, uh, rather than for equalization under separate but equal, they fought for desegregation were wanting, uh, to have, uh, the same resources and not to be prevented, uh, from having, uh, the opportunity to a quality education. We're not-not-not saying how that was going to be remedied, but, uh, there were—there was the issue of not having the same resources separately. It was not equal. Raymond Wolters: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: But then in addition to that, uh, there was kind of an underlying thought about the quality of the education and I don't know, uh, all the specifics of it, but I understand that there are some cases where in the process of Blacks having, uh, this opportunity, they fought for changes in the education that actually benefited Whites as well because part of this underlying issue here is not just, um, being able to go to any school. It's getting a quality education. Raymond Wolters: Yeah. Well, that's where we've failed. Actually. My own position is that desegregation was a good goal and integration was not. Oloye Adeyemon: But did you—do you define that as—uh, 'cause it-it-it never meant going to whatever school you wanted to. What did deseg—what was the dream of it or the hope of desegregation was it, uh— Raymond Wolters: I think— Oloye Adeyemon: 'Cause it seems to imply in there somewhere a better education. I think for some people that— Raymond Wolters: Yes. Oloye Adeyemon: - meant going to school with Whites, but for others it simply meant being able to have, uh, access to the best. And if the best for some reason was a White school, been access to the White school, can-can you address that? Do you understand the point? Raymond Wolters: I think I do. I know—maybe not. The—it seems to me that in the 1950s, the leaders of the civil rights movement wanted desegregation and equalization. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: Both-both. And that— Oloye Adeyemon: And by desegregation, they weren't just talking about the same resources. They were talking about the restriction being removed— Raymond Wolters: Right. Oloye Adeyemon: - from Black school into a White school. Raymond Wolters: Blacks or Whites could go to whichever school they wanted, and they thought that the, uh, funding should be about the same for each—in the same district. Oloye Adeyemon: Now, really, we're talking about two issues here. Raymond Wolters: Equalization and desegregation. Oloye Adeyemon: Yeah. Really two separate [crosstalk 37:17]. Raymond Wolters: I believe that initially the, uh, people like Thurgood Marshall and so forth wanted both. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: Later around 1968 or thereabouts, they added a third goal, which was integration. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: Uh, which meant no more predominantly Black schools and that's where I think they got off the track. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: And that's where I think the courts got off the track too. The courts, since '91 have, I think gotten back on track, but not the leaders of some of the major civil rights organizations who are still pursuing integration for its own sake. Oloye Adeyemon: Then my question is, and I understand that you have always questioned the court or the state being held responsible for the housing patterns, but we do have significant White flights— Raymond Wolters: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - so that as a result of this policy where schools are being desegregated, and in fact—uh, especially in some areas of the south where Blacks and Whites live more or less in dispersed. Now Blacks—and in Wilmington even, uh, now Blacks are going to quite likely end up going to— Raymond Wolters: Most of the Blacks. Oloye Adeyemon: Well, no, I'm saying in the beginning, uh, there's gonna be a significant number of Blacks going to the White schools, and we find all over the country, Whites moving to the suburb-suburbs where the suburbs are not gonna be included in any of the court actions that are gonna take place. So, in this case, um, obviously there's nothing that can be legislated to prevent Whites from moving into the suburbs. But in places like Wilmington, you had Newcastle County as a whole being created as a district so that these people that in fact less—not saying that's the only reason they left Wilmington, but some of these people who left Wilmington and, you know, may not have intended to have their children going to an integrated school are now included in busing. Raymond Wolters: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: Uh, busing in some ways was not just the result of those early housing patterns. It was also, uh, a way of bringing—in-in some senses, wouldn't you say? I-I-I-I understand, you know, that you can't control where people live, but since so many of the community, the demographics changed so rapidly, Washington DC is another example— Raymond Wolters: Mm-hmm. Oloye Adeyemon: - where the city was already becoming—it was an increase in the Black population, but suddenly if you look at the explosion in both Wilmington and Washington, it was at the point when integration was going to be, uh, the rule. And so, I guess one of the defenses that people have made for busing is that, uh, if you don't do it for the metropolitan area, then people will move wherever they have to move—that don't want to do it will move wherever they want. And so, the question becomes, is it a good thing for diversity in the classroom? Because if it is, then that becomes another thing that would be, um, desired through-through, uh [crosstalk 40:48]. Raymond Wolters: I don't—I think that, uh, it is not good for diversity, but-but, uh, it's pretty well established that you're going to have it. You're gonna have quite a lot and it's not just White flight. There's an awful lot of middle-class Black flight— Oloye Adeyemon: Sure. Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: - uh, because middle class Black parents are even more aware of what I will call the influence of the underclass. They want to keep their kids away from bad actors for—because they know the influence of the peer group. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: And so, if you have, uh, a bunch of lower-class kids, and it really doesn't matter whether they're Black or White, but if you have a bunch of lower-class kids coming into a school, middle class parents—doesn't matter if they're Black or White—are gonna move their kids out because they're afraid of the influence of those kids on their own children. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: And they don't think that their own children will benefit from mixing with those kids. Oloye Adeyemon: But aren't—is—aren't—isn't that metropolitan area gonna suffer the consequences of that? Raymond Wolters: Yeah. Well, they're gonna, as a result of the flight, and I-I— Oloye Adeyemon: 'Cause social problems of the-of the community as a whole, they're gonna affect everybody. If everybody benefits, everybody benefits. If everybody suffers— Raymond Wolters: Well, you see— Oloye Adeyemon: If somebody suffered society— Raymond Wolters: - I don't-I don't think that the schools can do it all. You-you've got a-a certain hardcore of kids who are difficult and problematical. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: And I don't think the teachers are well equipped to deal with them. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: I think you need a different kind of school for those kids. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: Uh, a school based more like on army lines, you know, the army has had excellent success. And football coaches, by the way, have had excellent success, and [crosstalk 42:47]. Oloye Adeyemon: You're gonna have those discipline problems in suburban schools, [unintelligible 42:51] shootings and so on, testimony. And then you're gonna have it in the inner city, but aren't you going to in fact, rob both sets of children, uh, if there's not a—um, if there's not a more global approach taken? Raymond Wolters: Well, uh— Oloye Adeyemon: I'm not [crosstalk 43:17]. Raymond Wolters: You're gonna deprive them of diversity. Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: But— Oloye Adeyemon: But do you feel that diversity is a good thing? 'Cause that's something that I think is also implied in some of the later decisions. Raymond Wolters: There are— Oloye Adeyemon: Diversity is good. Raymond Wolters: Yeah. Well, diversity, no, sometimes I don't think it's good, but there are competing values. A lot of parents want their kids first and foremost to learn the stuff, the chemistry, the algebra, the geometry, uh, and diversity is good in so far as it promotes that. And bad insofar as it's—as it detracts from that. Because let me get—let me make this point. The purpose of the school, in my opinion, is to teach academic subjects. It's not to make a better world. And if the school thinks that it's gonna make a better world, it's gonna solve global problems, it won't do it, and it will fail to do what schools can do— Oloye Adeyemon: Mm-hmm. Raymond Wolters: - which is to teach reading, writing, and calculation. Uh, Du Bois once said this, uh, and in fact I may have, uh, quoted him once and only once in this book. Uh, well, that's not true. I did quote him a few more times than once. Uh, but, uh, let me—uh, 'cause this gets at my point very directly. He was speaking to the NEA, the National Education Association, and he said, "Whenever teachers get together and try to find out how they can cure the ills of society, there is simply one answer, the school has but one way to cure the ills of society and that is by making people intelligent. To make people intelligent, the school has, again, but one way, and that is first and last, to teach them to read and write and count. And if the school fails to do that and tries beyond that to do something for which a school is not adapted, it not only fails its own function, but it fails in all other attempted functions because no school as such can organize industry or settle-settle the matter of wages and income or settle global problems. No school can found homes or furnish parents. No school can establish justice or make a civilized world. What schools can do is teach people to read, to write, and to count. That's what they should focus on." Oloye Adeyemon: On that note, I wanna go to this—change the tape and go to, uh— Raymond Wolters: Sure. Oloye Adeyemon: - next, uh— Raymond Wolters: [Laughs] That-that's my, uh, my opinion. But you see— [End of Audio]
Description
Brown v. Board Oral History Collection. Newcastle County, Delaware school segregation. Desegregation interviews. Interviewee Mr. Wolters, interviewer, Oloye Adeyemon for the National Park Service. Interview conducted in the home of Mr. Wolters and on Sandy Point, Maryland near the Bohemian River on the eastern shore of Maryland on August 16, 2001.
Date Created
08/16/2001
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